ellie unpacking (break-up unpacking wip) [UNFINISHED]

You can listen along while you read the transcript via this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1chSo32bqWCQOr4j6QXkHYMT8bQBamPPb/view?usp=sharing

[opening photo here]

Hi, Ellie! What's up?

I am not camera-ready this morning.

You are what, sorry?

I am not camera-ready this morning.

That's okay. That's okay. Good morning. Did you get a lot of sleep?

Not enough sleep, no. Thanks to—

Thanks to…sorry, what happened?

There is quite a lot of background noise. It would be whether you…see whether you can live with it.

That's okay. I'm surprised y'all are wide awake at this time of the morning. If it were me, I would still be sleeping for another three hours.

I wish. I wish. Oh dear, no. I can't think of the last time that I've slept beyond…like, I mean, maybe I've gone back to sleep, but, like, I can't remember the last time I've slept beyond 6 o'clock. Even if I then go back to sleep after that. Are you going to say hello? Say hello.

Hello.

Hi.

You got a hello. I'm gonna have to take him out. Oh, well, sometimes…because he just napped for ages and he's getting out in his—

Yeah, when I—I wasn't sure. I was like, "I don't know what time I should call Ellie at." Then I saw you react to my message in Instagram and I'm like, "oh, she's awake!"

*laughs* Yes, awake is a relative term.

Have you had your tea yet?

Say it again?

Have you had your tea yet?

I have not, no. It's a terrible oversight.

Oh my gosh, Elle-belle. I have so much I wanna word vomit and process through right now. I just like…I've been like…I was like, "I need Ellie. I wanna talk this through with Ellie." And I've just been…yeah, keeping it in, but do you want me to hold for a second while you make yourself some tea?

Well, no reason why you can't start whilst I'm making myself some tea.

Okay. I, honestly, I thought about it. I thought about everything that I wanted to tell you, but also I have had a hard time like…I should have written some down, honestly. I was like, "I just wanna say all this", but I had a hard time organizing it, too. I don't have it organized. I was just like, "I wanna talk about this and this and this and this."

I love how organized you want to be, though, but neither am I surprised you have notes.

I don't. I don't have notes. That's the thing. It's like, I should have written some notes down because I might forget stuff, and I could have organized it while I wrote it down.

That's okay.

But I didn't. I was just like…I had an urge to keep it in until I could talk to you because I was afraid that if I started, like, talking about it, that I would just word vomit it everywhere, and it would be a little overwhelming. So I'm like, "I'm just gonna wait."

Yeah. I mean…this isn't the only time we're going to talk about this, I have absolutely no doubt. We'll go over this many, many times. So even if you forgot something, we'll just pick it up the next time we go around.

That is fair. But I do feel like I have a lot that I wanna talk through because, like, oh my god, it's like I don't even know where to start. First of all, the thing that I was thinking about earlier is that it's crazy to me that one month ago, I was just status quo in Houston.

Yeah. I know. It's…

And, like, the things that has happened since then, I was like, "okay. That literally is crazy, and I am getting tired of using the word 'catalyst'."

You're getting tired about what?

I am getting tired of using the term 'catalyst'.

laughs Yeah, but what would be another word?

I know. I'm just like, "okay, how many times have we associated 'catalyst' in Sven now?" Like, I am, like…anyway. So, like, it just struck me today. I was like, "That's insane. Like, just one month ago, it was status quo. It could have just continued status quo," kind of thing. And now I'm in, like, a completely different state. So much shit has happened. And I literally just, like, less than half an hour ago, I, like, I came up to my Auntie Khlarisse and I hugged her so tightly. And she was like, "Awww…" She was like, "it's okay. You can let it out." And I'm like, "it's not something that I wanna let out." It was more… For me, it was a surge of gratitude because I feel so safe here.

Good. Well, good.

I feel so safe and cared for here, and she literally treats me like one of her kids. And I'm like, "oh my god. I'm a thirty-year-old who feels like I'm getting the love of a mom." And I'm like… happy tears

Awww…I feel so happy to hear that.

And, like, wise advice, and just help, and care, and rest. Rest was really, like, a lot of, like, for a long time… And even now, like, even now, I'm still… I still feel anxious about, like, "I don't wanna overstay my welcome." Like, "I need to rush through this." Like, "I don't want to burden them for too long." And just very recently, I think… and this coincides with the 'starting to feel better,' right? Very recently, I've finally reached a place where I feel safe enough to exhale.

Yeah, that makes sense. Like your nervous system.

Yeah. Like, because I feel safe enough to exhale and lean into it and breathe a sigh of relief, because I have that safety that I don't feel like I have to, like, hold it all together and hold it all in kind of thing. And so now I'm able to, like, talk about things. And…because I remember the first two weeks of being here, I literally spent eighty percent of it in bed. And I was not talkative at all. I was not very talkative.

Yeah.

And I was just listening. I knew that, you know, everyone's trying to help, and I'm like… especially because I came here fresh out of a very bad space, mentally.

Yeah.

Fresh out of a very deep ravine.

Yeah.

Mental ravine. awkward laugh Because when I say ravine now, I'm thinking about, "oh boy…" So anyway, because I came here in that state, I was very much just, you know, tired and exhausted. And I definitely did not have the energy to sort through my feelings or process them or unpack them. And for the most part, I just was listening. I was just listening to everyone. I'm like, "you can talk. I can listen. I can listen. I mean, I don't have energy to talk or I don't have energy to unpack or process or verbalize anything, but I will listen, and I will, like, give a little bit, like, test the waters and, offer bits of pieces at a time, see what kind of feedback I got." And, like, I have honestly just been given so much space and permission to rest and feel safe. And I don't know. I was just…it makes me cry just thinking about it. I'm like…

I know. I wish we all had an Auntie Khlarisse.

I know. I was like, "I feel so supported and cared for here," and even when I start to feel overwhelming, if we overdo it and I start to feel overwhelmed, like, they are very understanding and course-correct and, like…I just…I feel safe.

Good. I mean, like, when you said the other day, when you said you'd basically been in your room for two weeks or however long, and not really done much apart from lying in bed… I was like, "I know you're going to be feeling guilty about that."

And I would, and I have.

So that you can actually do that is amazing. Like, not just in a logistical practical sense. That's not what I mean. But, like, that you feel that you have been able to give yourself permission to stay in bed all day or whatever.

I know. And I have been. I have felt guilty, and I am still feeling kind of guilty that, like, for a while, it felt like "I am doing nothing. I am unproductive. And I don't know how long I'm gonna be in this slump for. And before the pressures get, like, filled to me, I'm already, like, putting that pressure on myself." And there have been pushes in conversations where they're like, "maybe we should do this." But it has been very, like, small baby steps. Like, literally, Auntie Khlarisse was just like, "just pick one thing to do in the morning and one thing to do that in the afternoon and then call it a win" kind of thing. And also, like, being given the permission on being like, "it's okay if you feel like you have to be in bed all day. You don't have to feel like you have to interact with us or interact with people." And just…having that permission to feel safe and rest and exhale is just, like, doing wonders for me and is, like, really helping me, like…really helping me feel safe, that's it. And that feeling of safety is the first part of…I'm like, "okay, if I can…like, being able to lean into that" is the first part of where I can be, like, I can actually, like, start this process and not feel overwhelmed and exhausted all the time and, like, have that space and care. And I don't know. I'm just…like I said, less than half an hour ago, I just…I just wanted to hug her because I, like, I feel so grateful.

I'm so glad. I'm so glad to hear it. Like, I think we all need Auntie Khlarisse. No, seriously, it's like you've been having to try and hold yourself for 30 years.

And it's been also great being here in their house and watching them interact with their kids. Like, just having healthy role models and having them, like, demonstrate or role model healthy behaviors for me, like… Just observing the way their family functions has been just very healthy for me. This is like… not ideal like optimistically ideal in an ideal world type of thing, but like, this is ideally how we would cope or react to… Because I mean, Auntie Khlarisse has shared with you before. She struggles with depression, too, especially in terms with, like, hormones and the menstrual cycle.

She shared a little bit with me about…

She was the one who said, in July, she was the one who said that, "Kyla, our family has really strong hormones. You really need to take care of that" kind of thing. So, yeah, she shared about she is familiar with the feeling of like, feeling very suicidal and very exhausted all the time. And Uncle Albert, her husband, struggles with anxiety. And it gets really bad, and he has panic attacks, and has general anxiety disorder. But the way that they treat each other, and the way they act around each other, is so healthy. And I'm over here, and I thought about this, like, yesterday or the day before. I was laughing when I thought about this. I was like, "Auntie Khlarisse is, like, well-acquainted with depression. And Uncle Albert is well-acquainted with anxiety. And I have the best of both worlds."

laughter I mean that's certainly a way of finding the silver lining. laughter I love the way you did your little hair flip. "I've got the best of both worlds. Hair flip."

But it's also, like, a feeling of uhm…not just being understood, because, like, they have first-hand experience, but, like, just being able to treat me with the care and gentleness that I needed to feel supported and safe, kind of thing.

And that it's not transactional.

Yeah. And I'm like, "I was looking for this." bittersweet tears and laughter

Yeah.

I was like, "I was looking for this feeling of safety, and I am just so grateful that I am getting it right now."

Oh, that's amazing. That's so amazing, Kyla. Like…I think I'm going to cry.

I'm already starting to cry. Anyway. So the main topic of tonight was Sven and anger and vent, and so let's stop with the mushy feelings. I'm kidding. laughter

No, no, no.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I don't actually…I got to have my vent session yesterday just to get, like, stuff off my chest. But the reason I really wanted to talk to you is because I know that if I talk to you through this feeling, that it would be a lot more productive than venting at Jennifer. Because I'm like, Ellie's actually gonna challenge me and ask me questions.

I'll do my best.

And stay on track. Because Jennifer gets so distracted so easily, and I'm just sitting there listening to her, like, live commentary-ing what she's doing at that very moment.

"Oh my goodness. I love coffee."

That's exactly her, and I love her for it. But, like, everyone has their roles, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That kind of thing. You know.

Like I said, I will do my best to perform. No, but I'm really touched. Yeah, I think it makes me very… I think it makes my nervous system exhale knowing you have… Like, I just have this image of, like, you being picked up. You know, there's a saying that there's a time in your life when it's the last time that you'll ever be picked up by your parents. And, you know, you never know when that's going to be. And that metaphor, like, I think we still need to be picked up and carried sometimes, and I'm so glad that you're finally getting that. Because I'm not sure you've ever really been picked up and carried just from what I've gathered from what you've told me and bits and pieces that Khlarisse has sort of filled in from some details, as well. And so the fact that…yeah, you get to be able to feel that it's okay to be carried. Like, I think that's the big difference, rather than feeling guilty about being carried. So I'm really like, I'm so happy. Like, I can't tell you how happy you are in a place where you feel safe because I don't know whether you've ever really had that. And I will just say, from everything that I know, which might not be much, the guilt might come back around again. It might not have left. I don't know. Now you'll be like, "oh my goodness. I need to be productive and, like, prove that I am getting better so that I don't waste the like, all the love. There's gonna be a voice, one of your one hundred people in your head is gonna be, like, "now you have to prove."

There's about seven of them that does still do that on a daily, but, like, seven is manageable compared to the hundred.

Sorry. It's just that someone was getting very noisy at my end. Try again?

I said there are about seven of the hundred that does that constantly, but, like, seven is manageable compared to the hundred. Seven percent is okay.

laughter I love how accurate you are. That exact number.

I don't know. I'm not, like, calculating it. I'm just like, "it feels like a seven percent." I'm going off vibes here.

Yeah. laughter I'm just like, "oh, there's a part…I don't know."

And I'm like, "how big or small is that part? It's about seven percent."

Seven percent. But yeah. But, like yeah. I just wanted to name that just in case. Forewarned, forearmed, that kind of thing. But just from my own experience, it's like a cyclical thing where I finally get to a place where I can exhale…

I don't doubt that tomorrow, I might… No. Hopefully, not tomorrow. I don't doubt that an upcoming day, maybe two or three days down the road, I might end up crying over Sven again. And I'm like, that's okay. We're going through the process. Like, just…what's also been so helpful about Auntie Khlarisse and Uncle Albert is that the way they talk to me is helping my self talk, sort of. Like the feeling of safety that they provide is really helping…and, like I said, having the permission, like, for example, today, I was feeling very dysregulated and just, "it's okay to feel this way" or "it's okay that you can only do this much" kind of thing nd it's helping me be able to parrot that to myself kind of thing or mirror that to myself because I know that I am my worst critic. And, like, literally, like I said, that that photo that I sent you. My brain is not a nice place to be in. But it helps when someone is modeling that for me to, like, easily, like, follow, sort of.

And, like and it's yeah. It's there. It's safe for you in a very real way rather than it kind of being abstract and complacent.

when I first arrived here, like I said, for the most part, for first the week and half, Auntie Khlarisse and I have had so many conversations just exploring, like, unpacking what happened, unpacking, like, my childhood, my upbringing, and, like, psychoanalyzing a little bit, but not, like, too deeply. Like, just exploring as much as I'm comfortable with and as much as I'm willing to, like, I'm willing to interact or to engage with. And I for the most part, like I said, I've just been sponging. I've just been absorbing information. I've not been really contributing much. I mean, I would say an emotion, but I wouldn't fully unpack it. I would just say it. Like, I know that ever since I got here, the strongest, most repetitive thing, like, emotion that I would say is, like, "I feel very betrayed." I would always say, like, "I feel so betrayed. I feel so betrayed." And then Auntie Khlarisse would, like…she would not just, like, permit that feeling, like, "it's normal to feel betrayed", but she would also, like, explore it a little bit. Like suggest, like, "is it this? Is it that?" And most of the time, I've just been listening because I have needed the time to wrestle with my own thoughts, to weigh my own emotions, and to, like, basically, just get myself back to a stable place. Because like I said, the last few weeks have been hard hard and I have found…like…have not felt safe. If anything, like, my boss taking me to the hospital, I feel like just worsened things for me. Because I definitely…it didn't…that wasn't a…instead of feeling safe there, I felt very threatened, and it made everything worse.

You lost all autonomy.

It made everything worse. It basically emphasized that feeling of "Now I really wanna die because this is terrible being here, and I don't ever wanna find myself here again." I really feel like…I don't know. Part of me is like, I don't know. Maybe it helps some people, but for me, the sole two experiences I've had with institutionalization have been, like, the complete opposite effect of what it's supposed to do.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how it works here in the UK. I am not a fan of the way that it seems to work in the US.

It just exacerbated everything. I feel like it made, for at least for my case, it just… yeah, it exacerbated it, and it literally, like, contributed to the state of mind I was, like, two days ago. I hate to admit it. Angel's always right a lot of the time. But when I was in Arizona, she was just…

Okay. I missed that. Something about Angel?

I hate to admit it, but she is usually right. And when I was in Arizona, she was like, "yeah, you shouldn't have told Kerry. You should have come to my house, and we could have just, like, rode it out together and cried and, like, ate an ice cream." And I'm like, honestly, that might have been better than what actually happened because as soon as I left the hospital, I was just… I was feeling very impulsive, and I literally have had three days to spiral lower and lower into the mental state that I ended up in when I when I left the hospital. And I understand why my boss, like, took me there, because I was unstable. Like, you were there. I called you first after the breakup. You were the first person I called, and you knew I was very upset. And I was definitely feeling very unstable. And I was feeling very impulsive, and she was worried about me, and she didn't wanna be responsible. So I understand. Like I'm saying, her heart was in the right place, it's just that…it's just that uhm…

The tools were the wrong tools.

I understand why that happened. It's just that it made everything worse.

Yeah.

It's just that I ended up like, because I didn't have anything to do or think about for three days, all I could think about is "how am I gonna die? How can I make myself die? How do I die? Like, I need to die." That's all I could think about for three days straight!

Yeah, I remember saying to Jen, after the first time you were coming out of the one in Houston… I remember saying to Jen, I feel like I understand why maybe they felt, like, you know, confident talking to you or whatever about taking away your phone. But it's like, but what are what are they doing? Like because it feels like all they've done is, like, given you a lot of time to dwell on how awful everything was.

Yeah. Like I said, I understand why Kerry thought it might help, but it just definitely did not help me. And like I said, it just made everything worse by the time I got out. Like, everything was so much worse. And…what was I thinking? There was a point I was trying to make and it just flew away from my brain. Hello, midnight. There was a point I was trying to make. What was it? I forgot. Oh, yeah. Like I said, I understand, because definitely when I went up to her to tell her, like, "I can't work this afternoon, I do not feel capable." I know I was definitely very unstable and distressed. But, like, I had two days in the hospital before I was transferred to the ward for another three days to get a lot of sleep. And by the second day, and I was able sleep to it off, I think it would have been better if I could have gone by the second day. Because I was like, okay. I'm not as… I'm not, like, I'm not all well now, but I'm feeling much more stable and, like I can unhealthily cope again. Go back to unhealthily coping. So, I mean, I guess, in in the bigger scheme of things, maybe the whole way it went down was necessary for me to get to this place. But I was like, "if you literally had let me go on the second day, it wouldn't have gotten that bad because I was already feeling like… after two days of non-stop sleep, I was already feeling like, "okay. I'm in a more stable place now. I can pull it together once more" kind of thing. But then the forced, like, the forced imprisonment, basically, just made… yeah, it made everything worse.

Just tipped it over the edge?

It just made everything worse. By the time I left, I was just like, yeah, I've had three days to think about it. Like, my mind's made up. I have a whole ass plan that I've had three days to polish.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kind of thing…uhm…

I mean, yeah, just what you just said there was like I mean, it was…maybe it needed to happen to get you physically, geographically, to your Aunt's house. laughs Like, maybe that's…you know…would you have ever ended up where you are now if you hadn't gone through the past few weeks?

I don't think so. I wouldn't have dropped everything and came to take an unscheduled vacation and put all my finances on hold, no. But as I was saying, as soon as I came here, like, the strongest feeling was: I feel so betrayed. And my aunt has tried to unpack that with me and explore why that might be. And I've had, what, almost two weeks to wrestle and, like, try to understand and weigh my own feelings. And I have come to the realizations that the strongest feeling of betrayal is, like… I feel betrayed because it's: I believed in you and you wronged me. And you know we've had our issues. I don't know. I don't remember now how much I've told you about them, but you know that I've always thought… I've always had that nagging feeling that he's just gonna hurt me. This is gonna be, like, pointless, kind of thing. He's not gonna be capable of, like, actually falling through with all these promises or all these words that he's given me. And you know that I've always had gut feelings and instincts and reservations that I've pushed away consistently because I'm like, "no. I'm trusting this person. I wanna believe in this person. I wanna have faith that this person is capable." Because I, to this day, believe he is capable of being the person that I saw him as, that I believed in. But instead, he literally has continued to hurt me, has not made the changes that has been necessary because I have, throughout, for months, we have fought again and again about whenever I keep flagging with him, like, "things cannot continue like this. This is not—"

Sorry. Give me one moment. One moment. Someone is being…super noisy. Sorry. "The last few months," is the last thing I heard.

I said for months, we have been fighting about the fact that I keep telling him, I'm like, "you cannot treat me that way. Things cannot continue this way. This is not it for me." How did I phrase it to him? It was something along the lines of, like, not "I can't take this," but just— I have a very strong sense of: "this is not how I'm supposed to be treated" kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can't— You deserve more than being treated like that, you know?

Yeah.

The fact that you have that in a sense is, I just want to just sort of say: that's really, like…

Good?

No, really good, but, like, almost amazing that you still have that given your past relationship.

But that's the thing. It's because of my past relationship that I have a very strong sense of "that's not love. That whatever you're saying to me right now looks like love, but it's not love and it's not enough for me" kinda thing. Like, "I know what my needs are, and I actually need my needs to be met" kind of thing because of that past relationship. But what works against me is that… the thing that I was struggling with that I was trying to work through with Leo was, obviously, that instinct of self-sacrifice. But also, my aunt Khlarisse has said it in so many different ways in the past two weeks. She's like, "okay. You don't wanna aim the gun or the sword or the the sharp edge at anyone else, but all you do is you end up pointing it at yourself." Because I'm trying to say, "I don't wanna, like, do this and this." She's like, "yeah. You don't wanna do this to others, but then you do it to yourself, and you're treating yourself so horribly." And I'm like, "yeah, because I have this innate, like, "I can take it." Like, "I'll take it. I would rather take it than point it at you" kind of thing. But the thing is, I can't take it. As evidenced by two weeks ago, I can't take it.

Yeah. Absolutely. Like, the point you were saying that, it's like holding the sword by the blade. That was the image that came into my head. It was just like, you're so desperate not to point the sword at anybody else that you'll hold the blade yourself. Yeah. You, because you're very, like, determined not to point it at anybody else.

And so you already knew that, like, obviously, communication, distance, that's part of the issues. And the fact that he would leave me for days or, like, over a day or hours on end in silence, And I was like, "you know that's not good for my nervous system, and yet you are completely fine with not speaking to me for over a day." And I flagged that ever since it first happened in July, right? And then he's like, "it's never gonna happen again", and it happened again. And then when it happened again, he said "it's never gonna happen again." And I'm like, "at this point, my body already expects it. Like, you've already sent the precedent because you already said—" Like, towards the end, there were so many times where I was like, "I have heard that before." I've heard that before. I'm like, "you've said this before, and yet it keeps happening. What the frick?" I have complained to you about his friends, right?

Yeah, I know that that is a full topic.

Okay. So you know about…for example, okay, you know about Dora. And you know how that all started, right? In that wedding in Ireland? And I just thought it was really weird.

You're gonna need to give me a little bit more context, but I probably know? I just need a bit more context I could get on to. I don't recognize the name Dora.

Okay. So when I first started talking to Sven, like, when we were still getting to know each other, every now and then, he would talk about some of his best friends, which is Dora, and Neils and Jamilla. So these are his three closest friends. So Dora is, like, a female Twitch streamer who just recently got married that he's known for about 4 years, and then Niels and Jamilla is the couple that he's known for about seven years, right? Like, he would tell me about them. And then the more that he would tell me, the more red flags or alarm bells were ringing in my head that I was like… Honestly, I didn't say this to him until much later in the relationship, but, like, the more that he was telling me, my first impression was like, these sound like really dysfunctional relationships. But I was also very much like, "you know what? I can't judge. Because that's your friendships. I'm not gonna judge it. Like, you do you. Like, to me, that sounds really dysfunctional, but, like, I have no idea I what your journey is and what your experience is, so I'm not gonna judge you."

Yeah.

So here are my experiences about them, right? This is what I know about them. I'll walk you through, like, how I experienced them, basically. So when I first really got acquainted with the concept of Dora, it was when she had invited him to a wedding in Ireland. And he was saying, like, "yeah, her boyfriend can't go, so she invited me to be her plus one instead. And her boyfriend was like, yeah. Invite Sven because he's a sweetheart." Like, at this time, they weren't married yet, but they got married, like, in August, and Sven was actually one of the best men. So, like, I got the sense that… yeah, I mean, it's one of your best friends, so obviously, you're close. And I'm like, "that's cute. Like, that's really sweet." Like, I didn't really care. I didn't really mind, right? And then so Ireland happened. And then we got into an argument the night of the wedding because he told me that, "hey, can you keep me accountable?" Because this is the time when he needed a lot of rest.

Yeah, I recognize this story, yeah.

And the back, and okay, so I'm gonna skip over that part where he was like, "yeah, keep me accountable. Like, I should go back at midnight." And I got so mad—

And then he didn't.

I was so mad because I was like, why even bring this up when you don't plan on following through with it? Like, that should've been the first, honestly, sign that this man really has no follow-through whatsoever. Anyway. I'm trying to keep myself from just mindlessly trash-talking. I'm trying to be productive here.

Okay, but I think it's also important for you to be able to go, "oh, that thing here is connected to this thing here." It's not bad to, like, make those connections although I appreciate that you don't want to just trash-talk—

Okay. So I think that is one thing that, like, eventually towards the end became a really big argument between us about, like, "look, if you say something, you have to mean it. And you have to act on it. And you have to have actually actions as proof." Because I literally told him, "I come from a doing family." And me and Auntie Khlarisse has talked about this recently too, like, in a couple of different conversations, because we have talked a lot since I got here. She's like, "our family just does things." And, obviously, we need to learn to be more verbal and words of affirmation and just talk more, but one thing our family does well is they do. They provide. They do. And sometimes they do without you asking, and sometimes they do, like, without even telling you. Sometimes they pride themselves on doing without you knowing, kinda thing. So, for me, towards the end, some of our fights were just very much like, I was like, "I don't need you to say it. I need you to do it." I'm like, "if you're gonna say something, you better be doing something" kind of thing. There was a lot of things that I was like, "okay, I am tired of hearing this, but there's no action there."

Yeah.

That's just a very brief sidetrack. But, anyway, what I was saying is that we argued that night because I was like, okay… Like, because for me, like, I don't say something unless I mean it. Like, I don't… not overpromise, but I don't wanna, like, make, like, promises that I don't mean, period. I put a lot of careful thought or consideration into the words that I use because I know that if I say it, I actually mean it.

Yeah.

Anyway, so that was the first time we argued about…

Sorry.

That's okay. laughs Okay, I will shush. I'm kidding. laughs

No, not you. laughs

I know. laughs

That was the first time, yeah, that we argued about… I was like, "yo, you can't say this and then not do it. You can't say this and then not do it. Like, you told me to do this, and then now you're just gonna ignore me? Like, how does that make me feel?" And this was… I feel like I'm gonna end up sidetracking again and this is not gonna be in chronological order, but this was also one of our big biggest issues towards the end, is that he would keep saying, he's like, "oh, I would like to do this by this and this. By Sunday or by Saturday." And to him, it's like, "I said I would like to do it. I didn't promise that I would do it. Ideally, I wanna be able to have space to do it." But to me, it's like, "if you say Sunday, it's Sunday. And every single time that you postpone that or you fail to follow-up on that, it feels like you're just putting it off and you're, like, going against the word that you gave me that I held onto." Like, things that bothered me that I was like, "we need to address this. This needs to be addressed because this is weighing on my nervous system." And he would be like, "oh, until Sunday." And I'm like, okay, so that's what I would tell my nervous system to pacify it. I'm like, "calm down. Just wait till Sunday" kinda thing. And then when Sunday comes around and nothing happens, and he's like, "I wasn't able to do it today," then I'd be like, "what the fuck? I held on to that. My nervous system held on to that. And now you're saying, like, it's gonna be postponed again." And I'm like, "you literally can't do that. You have to, like, if you say things, you have to mean it" kinda thing.

Yeah.

So…what was I thinking? I sidetracked so bad. Actually, this is not going to be in chronological order.

That's okay. You were telling me about Dora.

Yeah. So that was the whole, like, argument in Ireland. And then by the next morning, we hashed it out. We argued it out, and then we made up. And then the next morning, we were talking, and he made, like, a side comment that striked me as weird at the time that, like, at the time, I was just like, "okay, that's weird." And then I just, like, forgot about it or filed it away. But it wasn't until later when I looked back on it, and I was like, "oh, like, that should have been a clue" kinda thing. Because the next day, he said, like, "oh, and Dora apologized to me," or "she felt bad if she had anything to do with the argument." And to me, I was like, "why does she think she was involved?" To me, it just came off very arrogant. Honestly, to me, I was like, "that's arrogant." But then I thought about the context that she's a Twitch streamer, and I was like, "oh, well, it's like celebrities. Twitch streamers tend to have a big head, right?" I was like, yeah, they probably think it's all about them. I gave, like, the grace of like, oh, okay. If your occupation is Twitch streamer, she's just, like, probably used to being arrogant or involved or, like, kinda thing like that. Kinda like things being about her. But for me, I was like, that's weird. I was like, why does she think she's involved or why does she think she has anything to do with this? Like, that's very arrogant to even think about that because you weren't even in my brain at all, kind of thing, when we were arguing. And so that was my first my first impression of her, right? But she's one of his best friends, so I'm like, "I will actually try and make an effort to, like, get to know these people." So I did join one of her streams, and the first and last and only time I ever utilized the chat room in any of her streams, I did join and I tried to strike up a conversation, and I was getting very weird vibes. And I'm like, I know this is his community, and I'm excited to get to know his community because I'm excited about just knowing this person and knowing his friends and everything. And I was, like, trying to make small conversation, and Sven was excited about it, like, he was, like, trying to hold that conversation, keep the conversation going. But, like, I didn't feel very welcome. Like, it wasn't, like, hostile, but it felt very disinterested. And it was, like, the weirdest vibes for me. I was, like, "I do not even… I don't wanna, like, force anything. It's awkward if I, like… I don't wanna make an effort if you're not interested", you know? That's just awkward.

Like brittle—

Yeah. I was like, okay—

In the sense of like—

It wasn't even, like— it didn't even bother me. It was more of a, "oh, okay, this isn't worth my effort then. This doesn't matter then." It was like a "okay, like, brush it off my shoulder" kinda moment. But then I found out that, because by this time, we already had access to each other's, like, location, social media accounts, and stuff like that. And I found an old conversation of Jennifer and Sven, where, when he was talking to Jennifer about being invited to that Ireland wedding, when he was so excited about it, which he also gushed about to me. When he found out the news, he was also very excited to tell me about it. But Jennifer's response to that was like, "ooh, do you have a crush? Is this, like, someone you have feelings for?" And his response to that was "maybe." And I was like, "what?" Because by this time, we were already talking, right? And I was, by this point— because I remember when he was gushing to me about this invitation. So I was like, "what do you mean?" Like, this bothered me. I was like, "what do you mean?" And he was like, "maybe." And he's like, "I'm not gonna tell you who it is because you can easily find her because she's a Twitch creator" or something like that. Even though she only has, like, what, twenty a stream. But I was, like, literally, I was like, "oh! You used to crush on this person." So it makes so much more sense now that she would even feel like she was involved in some way, because girls know. Like, we can sense if people are interested in us. And I'm like, "so she probably feels entitled to that type of attention from you" or something along those lines. It felt like things clicked in my head when I found that out, and I was like, "and I didn't even know this. Like, literally, you never told me about this. You never told me about this history there. I just found it myself, which annoys the heck out of me." And so that happened. So that discovery made me realize, I'm like, "oh, there's, like, a sort of, like a history there."

Mm. Just not completely mutual.

So things that, initially, that I was like, "that seems weird, but whatever." Like, it, in hindsight, now made sense, kinda thing. That was my first impression of Dora. I will go back to her because there are other friends.

Is it, did you say, now part of a couple, but there's, like, there was a couple that you had…like, I could not remember enough. But, yeah, there was like a throuple.

So Jamilla and Niels…

Is that right?

No, Jamilla and Neil is Sven's other best friends, the two, that he has known for over seven years. And, like, he's told me about them before, but then he would say weird stuff like… there was one time when he was gaming with Niels. Like, the first memory I have of, like, feeling weird about that is, like, he was gaming with Niels, and then he got off the games with Niels. And then he was, like, "Niels was really drunk, and he literally was boasting." What I've known about this couple is that they're bisexual, right? And he's told me before, he's like, "they're bisexual, and they have sort of a, like, we can play with our same sex type of thing, like, arrangement, like, if we wanted to" kind of thing? And so it's sort of in an open relationship if it's same-sex relationship because…I don't know. They're married and they're in love with each other, but I guess they can like, flirt or, like, dabble with, like, something along those lines. And I was like, "cool, that's interesting. People are people. Again, I don't judge." But then there was this time when he was gaming with Niels, and then he got off the call and he seemed very, like, he was like, "yeah, Niels was just telling me about how they have been playing all day. Playing, meaning, like, basically, Jamilla had a toy in her, and Niels has had the remote to that. And that they were in the market and he had been teasing her all day with that until she's just like, "let's just go home and, like, have at it" right? And Sven is very, like, open about the sex stories that they share with him that he then shares with me. Like, they're even— like, they're just in general, like, as people, I've met these people. In general, they are very open about, like, their sex life, kinda, period. But he was like, "oh, yeah, after that game with Neils, he was really drunk, and he was boasting about, like, teasing her all day at the market until she just, like, basically begged to go home and, like, have it out" kind of thing. And then Sven said he kept boasting about, like, how he's gonna like, he has to go because he's gonna, like, let her have it, kinda thing and, like, all the positions he's gonna put her in and all that. And then he said, "and he asked me if he can send photos."

Oh my god.

And I was like, "what?" And then he was like, "yeah, I thought that was really weird too." And I joked about it. I was like, "that's crazy. It seems like you're the perfect third for their little throuple now. And we were joking about it at the time, and I was like, "so does this, like, call into question every other time in the past?" He's like, "I never thought about it that way, but, yeah, it seems that way." And I'm like, "so now are you thinking back to interactions in the past and, like, picking up on hints that you might not have picked up on before?" And he was like, "actually, yes, because I remember, like, when I go to visit them, like, they would always invite me to stay over at theirs even though I'm insistent on getting my own hotel room" or kinda thing. And then now he's like, "and now I'm wondering if, like, that meant anything more. But, obviously, I didn't think about it at the time" kinda thing. Like, at the time, we just joked about it. And I was like, "okay, that's weird." Like, I just— that's weird.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's the same with Dora. There's a feeling in me that's just like, "that's weird." We joked about it, but then that was the first impression I had of this couple friends of his, right? And we joked about it. And so time passed, and then July happened. And in July, you know, that whole thing happened where he had his hospital visit, and then I had that issue with his location. And then we fought that night, and then he literally did not talk to me for three days. Basically, ghosted me for three days. And I leaned on you at the time because I was like, "this is bad for my nervous system." I hate that he basically just, like, he was like, "oh, I need some time" and then just— it's like an indefinite period of time. He never told me, like, when we were coming back, when we were discussing this. I am just stuck in the same nervous system for this long.

Yeah, cycle.

Like, it's an indefinite amount of time where I am stuck, like, in the same, like, state, in the same nervous state, kind of thing.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nervous state.

You have front row tickets to this because you were the person that I was ranting to when he was taking his space and never told me when he was coming back. Like, you were the person that I was like, "why is he doing this? Why is he leaving me in this emotional state for days? Like, what? Why does he think this is okay?" Like, you were the person that I was venting to about that. Anyway, by the time he came back three days later, I was already feeling very defeated, and I'm like, "I don't even see the point anymore. Like, you, literally, what you did, like, you left me in that emotional state for days. And at this point, I just feel very, like, tired." This is one of the reoccurring, like, "no, I'm just tired. I'm just way too tired for this, and now I just really just… I just…" yeah, tired to the point of I just want to off myself. So he was like, "I am so sorry" and trying to fix things. I'm like, "look, I have been in this emotional state for three days. Like, at this point, I feel very dead, like, numb, like, just, like, just kill me now type of thing," right? So, like, July happened, and then that failed. And then, like, he was so mad because he was trying to, like, apologize and fix things, and I wouldn't have it. Because by that time, I was like, I already have decided to end my life. So I'm like, I'm not gonna take you back if my plan is tonight, I'm already ending my life kinda thing. I would rather you think that I broke up with you and go off and not know that I ended my life kinda thing. Anyway. So then I tried to end my life, and that didn't work out. laughs So the next day, I called him absolutely, like, devastated because I'm like, it didn't work, and I was just so tired. And I just wanted everything to end, and now I'm forced to go on, and I hate this, kind of thing. And apparently to him, it was very confusing because he thought, like, we were broken up. And he said that he had called, like, the couple friends of his crying and venting to them about how much he tried for, like, hours. I'm like, "hours to fix things? Even though you ignored me for days?"

Yeah.

And like he basically cried to them about it, and Jamilla, the wife, was so, like, mad and, like, told him to basically, like, just walk away. Burn the bridge and walk away, kinda thing. So that happened mid-July. And I was like, "I have no idea what type of shit you told them about me." Like, at the time, I wasn't thinking that. But at this point, this is, like, a pattern. Like, this is a trend that I already— like, even you recognize that when I was telling you, like, "Ellie, I already know he's gonna bitch about me" because of the end of July. Because of the end of July, when he did that whole, like— ooh. Let me start from the beginning. End of July. My first shift back in The Best Little Dog House in Texas. My first shift back, I was in the middle of my shift, and it was a stream night for him. And then I could tell, like, after the stream, he was very quiet and, like, he was starting to get upset. Like, I could I could recognize the triggers, right? Because, like, by this time, I already know you that I can read you very well. I can read your facial expressions. I can read your mood very well at this point. And I was like, okay, he's upset or he's mad about something, and I have no idea. And it's making my nervous system, like, very, like, dysregulated right now, especially because all these dogs are so annoying, and I am trying to regulate myself.
And I am very worried because I have no idea what he's mad about, or I have no idea what he's upset about, and I can't do anything about it until my break.

One second, Kyla. Yeah. No.

Yes.

So I was like—

You could read him.

Oh no. Hold on, Elle-Belle, because my phone just said "20% battery remaining", so I have to run upstairs just to grab my battery. I'll be right back. Not my battery, sorry, my charger. Hold on. I'll be right back.

That's okay.

Give me one second. I'm back, I'm back, I'm back. I hope my phone hasn't died yet. Hello?

Hello?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to have to lay this down like this. Oh. What was I saying? I was talking about…oh, yeah. So at mid-July, when that happened, he said, like, "oh, yeah, I called them crying, and then Jamilla got so angry at me and told me to, like, cut it off and burn the bridge kind of thing. And she's just, like, basically, was saying, like, very, like, "destroy the relationship," like, just destructive. He's like, "and that's what she usually is; she usually, like, resorts to the destructive" kinda thing is how he described it, right? And so, that was my next impression of them, basically. And I was like, "okay, cool." I'm like, "what did you say?" And he was like, "I don't know. I was just, like, complaining to them because I tried so hard for so many hours, so I called them crying" kinda is what he said to me. Like, he didn't tell me what he said, but that's what he said to me. Anyway, so then, I was talking to you about my first shift back in Houston with the dogs and, like, noticing that he was upset and, like, being very, like, worried. I was like, "oh, no." Like, getting the feeling of "I have to fix this," you know? Kinda like, "I don't know why he's mad, but I have to fix this." So I called for a break, and I was like, "I'm gonna go break." And that was also, like, an afternoon shift going into an overnight. And I was like, "I'm gonna go on a break, and I'm gonna go on a meal break, and I'm gonna go get food.: And then so we had this standard that we were trying to uphold at the time of, like, talking before he goes to bed. Because this was established in Australia. He got so mad that there was one time where we didn't talk because I was busy with the Reddit community. And, like, I spent hours on there, and he was like, "you know, we usually talk before we go to bed, and you didn't talk. You were too busy on Reddit." And I'm like, "you know what I was doing! I was trying to, like, damage-control whatever Roby did."

I remember. I remember.

I was, like, spending hours with that because I was spending hours trying to put out the fire. And he was like, "yeah, but, like, we should be talking before we sleep." Like, that was the first time he established that. He got so mad, and I was like, "okay, I didn't know that this was supposed to be a thing, but what I'm getting is that you're upset that I didn't talk to you before you go to bed, and this is what you want. I mean, you could have said that, like, in a better way, right, instead of getting mad at me, because this hasn't been established before." But ever since then, we had a principle of, bedtime for him is yap time. And it was harder in Houston because, like I said, the afternoon shifts coincides with his bedtime, and I was really worried about it. And so I was really worried that I wouldn't get to talk to him before he went to sleep, so I immediately, like, called for a break because I was like, "I need to be able to be there for a yap time before nap time." That's what we called it: yap time before nap time. And then so when I when I was walking to get food, I was like, "so, what's going on? You look angry. Why are you angry?" Like, I was asking questions. I was trying to find out because I was like, "you look like you're really mad", and my nervous system is very much "FIX IT. FIX IT NOW." And Then he snapped at me because he was like, "I was talking with Dora. I told you I'm talking. Why are you so impatient? Why is it that I have to tell you right now, right then" kinda thing? And I was like, "okaaaaay." I was so confused. I was like, "I don't know where this comes from, but I'll give you space" kinda thing. And then so I got my food, and then I went to the break room, and then I sat down. I ordered my food from the restaurant next door. And then I went to my— did I close the door? Hold on. I just— I mean, I think I closed the door. I just don't wanna wake anyone up. Basically, I ordered my food, and then they gave it to me, and then I went to the break room, and then when I sat down, I tried, like, asking questions again. I tried to push again because I was like, "my break is literally running out. I wouldn't be able to talk to this person before his bedtime, and this is, like, a thing that we established from back in Australia already." And then he just lashed out at me and said the meanest, most hurtful things. Like, he was basically yelling at me to the point where I felt like I needed to dissociate just so I could continue listening to him. Like, I got very distant, and this was a fight at the time because it feels like I'm abandoning him when I dissociate. And I'm like, "I'm not even trying to abandon you. I'm trying to dissociate because I'm trying to be present. I'm trying to be able to hear you out when you need to get that out there and you're being very hurtful about it. Like, I feel like I wouldn't be able to hear you if I'm in my emotions" kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I, literally, like, it was bad. Because for me, I was like, "this just came out of nowhere. I have no idea where this came from. I have no idea why you're being so mean. I have no idea." Like, just like, the most awful things and then he had so many accusations. And I— it was one of those moments, and I remember the very first moment I felt this in Australia, where he's so mad that I'm literally sitting there crying, like, already crying.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I know that he knows how hurtful he's being, and he knows that I'm crying, but I also know that he doesn't give a fuck at that point. Like, he doesn't even care. If anything, I feel like when he's in that mood or when he's in that state, like, that just helps prove his point. Like it might even be, like, a little bit intentional to be trying to hurt me like that, kind of thing?

Right.

So that was, like, I was just very taken aback. And I was very, like, "woah, where is this coming from," you know? And he's like, "yeah, because you do this, and you do this, and you always do this, and you never do this" and he just had so many accusations for me that I went back from my break, and I was so troubled. And I kept thinking of every single thing he was, like, throwing at me. And that was one of, like after the PM, I was also the overnight person. I stayed up all night to answer, to address every single concern that I remember him throwing at me. And I keep saying 23 paragraphs, but I don't even remember if that's accurate anymore. Maybe I should go back and count it again. Maybe it's only just, like, 17, but, like, a lot of paragraphs. And I spent all night. I didn't sleep at all. That entire overnight shift, I was up on my phone trying to, like, organize and address every single one. I put so much thought and care and consideration into that. And then I sent it to him. And then I had to, like, clean the room and get the dogs out, getting ready for the breakfast and everything. And I had to finish up my shift. And I went home and then I knocked out because I had no sleep at all the previous night. And then when I woke up, I noticed that there was a response from him so I sat down and tried to respond to it, and then I went back to sleep. Well, I didn't go back to sleep. I saw that he read it, and then he— and that's when he broke up with me. Like, by 5PM Friday, he sent me, like, "I can't do this anymore; We're breaking up" kind of thing.

Remind me when this was? Like, what month? What—

End of July. You were there for that break up.

And that was the end of July.

Because that was when he sent that message on Discord and quit the server.

Yes.

So I was like, for me, I so was confused because I was like, "how did we get from here, from yesterday where, like, literally out of nowhere, you just start throwing knives at me and then to here where you're just like, you know what? I can't do this anymore. We're breaking up" kinda thing. Because you were there for it. Like, that didn't just take me by surprise, but that I was literally so— I was like, "I had no idea where this came from." It was very…what do you call it? Like, the rug was pulled—

Blindsided.

Yeah, I was very blindsided. And, like, you were there, like, the exact time when he broke up with me. I was like, "and this man actually accused me that I heard, that I deliberately ignored him when his volume was so low, and I didn't hear whatever he had to say, but I guess it's a good thing."

Yeah, I remember.

I was like, yeah, I guess it's a good thing that I didn't hear it because he was in a very, like, combative, like, snappy, like, "you're just trying to hurt me" space. So that happened.

Yeah. I'm not sure if I fully appreciated at the time, like… I mean, maybe you did explain this to me, but, like… I'm not sure I fully appreciated like, that he had, like, just wailed on you and, like, started yelling at you. I don't know. Maybe because… I don't know. Maybe you did explain to me and I have subsequently forgotten, or maybe you were still in, like, a sort of disassociated space. But, like, I don't feel like I knew about the conversation that you just explained there where you were on your break and asking him what was wrong, and then he just blew up at you. Like I said, it's entirely possible that I have just forgotten.

Like I said, for me, it just came out of nowhere. So I was still grappling with, like, "oh, the rug was just swept up from under me. Like, I literally…there's no floor underneath me right now. I don't know what just happened. The floor is gone." Then you know that he messaged me again, like, five days after that, right? Because you coached me through that. You were like, "maybe don't respond to that right now because you're just off a 30-hour shift" kind of thing. And you coached me through all the talks. So, like, that happened. That happened. And then, as you know, we decided to get back together and try it one more time. Even though Jen was like, "please don't do this again if it's just gonna make you end up in the same mental state that you're in right now because, like, don't kill yourself over a boy" is what she said.

Yep, yep.

That's what she said back in July. She was like, "don't do it again, Kyla, if you're just gonna find yourself back in the state." And I was like, "I wanna and see if we can— I wanna, like, believe in his, like, determination to change" kinda thing. That was the thing. But I only had five days of, like, grappling with the fact of everything that he did to me. And you know how much it bothered me, like, "you made a public an announcement in the server, and the way that you portrayed me or painted me, I didn't even recognize" kinda thing. That bothered me so much. And so even after we got back together, like, you know that that was something that I wanted fixed. I was like, "you broke it; you fix it."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I was like, "you made a public announcement of our dirty laundry? Go wash it." So…what was I thinking? But thinking back on it now, I literally— between the time that we broke up and we got back together, I had no time at all to process what just happened and what he put me through. And I think I was just definitely, like, just aching to have that same comfort back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. If you're in free fall, then you want the ground—

I just wanted, like, to get everything back to normal, kind of thing. Because I had no idea where this came from. Like, just, "what the fuck happened?" But the thing is, everything that happened in that break-up, like, I didn't have the time or space or chance to process it. It still bothered me. Like even though we got back together and weeks passed and months passed, then I'm slowly processing it and slowly unpacking it. Then I'm slowly starting to realize that, "wait, this was not—" How I said it, like, because it was still an issue even until the very end of this last relationship… How I said it is that how I saw him before July and after July… I feel like July changed— it was a pivotal moment because, like, not only did it destroy trust, but it changed the view that I had of him. It split into two, which is basically 'pre-July' and 'post-July'. "Pre-July, I never would have thought you capable of doing what you did to me on July. Like, pre-July, I trusted you 80%. I believed in this optimistic version of you and I didn't think that you were capable of what, post-July, I thought you were very capable of doing" kinda thing. So July was really— that was really a very damaging moment for us, and that was actually one of our last arguments, like, before we broke up, is that he's like, "you never trusted me again after July." And I'm like, "no, not enough. I know that after July happened, I trusted you before that maybe over 80%, 85, 90. But once July happened, it came down to a 20, and we have— he had been working very hard to rebuild that." But even at the very end, I was like, "I only trust you 40%." Like, I don't know. The wounds from July was seriously massive. And like, after we got back together in August, we argued about it. I'm like, "so what is it? What is it that you were talking to Dora about that you could go and say all this mean stuff to me, talk about me this way in the Discord server, and basically, turn me into a person that I didn't recognize," right? That was my biggest issue with the Discord message and the whole breakup. I was like, "this person that you're painting? I don't even recognize her." And that bothered me. I'm like, "what was it about that conversation that caused this?" And I kept asking him, and he kept saying, he was like, "we just had a conversation about trust, and I spiraled." He was just like, "during the stream, we were talking about long-distance relationships, and she was trying to give me advice, and I spiraled about it" kind of thing. And I kept asking him, "so exactly what was said?" And he was like, "I don't remember anymore. I wish I could find the conversation, but she changed her number so her WhatsApp thread is different I don't have the thread anymore." Fast forward to December in Amsterdam.

Right.

No, not even in Amsterdam. Like, even before. Even before December. Even in October, there was a time—

Well, I have decided that I need to take him in a walk because he is bouncing off the walls. Like, I might drop in and out, but as you're doing rest of the talking, hopefully, that won't matter.

Okay. Even in October, when we had a double date with Jennifer and her husband at the Mayfair in London, I came across a message where he was telling some of his other friends who was in Dora's community that, during that period of time, they were like, "oh, you and Kyla broke up?" And he was like, "yeah, Dora helped me see how toxic she was" kinda thing. It was his response. And I was very annoyed about that. And even after August, like, during the months after that, like, we had so many fights and discussions about— because— oh, oh, I forgot to tell you that he had told me that after he broke up with me, he went to see his two best friends.

Yeah. And I think I remember you telling me this. Yeah.

And that they threw a book at him? Like, he said, "the girl was so mad that I felt bad about, like, what happened and how I treated you. And she was so mad because she was saying, like, 'you already burned the bridge; don't look back.' Like, just move on" kinda thing. And then she got so mad that she threw a book at him. And I told you that me and Angel are over there, being like, "why are these your best friends?" Literally, Angel looked at me and she was like, "if you throw a book at me, do you think we'd still be friends?" I'm like, "no." I was like, "why are your friendships so dysfunctional?" Because there were also times, there were months, where he would complain to me about the 3 streams a week that he was in. And he was like, "yeah, I hate it because I always feel like I'm obligated to be there because if I'm not there, if I say that I have work, for example, they're just gonna cancel it altogether until, like, I can be there. So now I feel like I have to be there. So even if I feel so exhausted, like, I feel like I have to be there and it's all up to me—"

Oh.

"—and I hate that obligation" thing. And so he has complained to me about those before. And I haven't even told him. I was like, "I don't like your stream personality because it sounds fake as fuck." Like, when he is talking in stream, I was like, "that just sounds like such a persona" kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And he acknowledged it too. He was like, "yeah, sometimes I feel exhausted, but also, like, some of these people, like, suck at keeping up the vibes, and I feel like I have to keep the vibes high" kind of thing. So "yeah, I realize why it would sound very fake to you because—"

I mean, I'm not the least bit surprised to hear that his Twitch streaming persona is different to his actual— because it is a performance.

Yeah. And it annoys me when I hear it, because I'm like, "that is not you. That's not what you sound like on a daily. That sounds very, like, staged" kind of thing. So sometimes it would annoy me because I'm like, "you are just forcing it. You are literally forcing yourself to be this, like, upbeat, even if you don't feel like— even if you're tired" kind of thing. So because we've had so many arguments about, like, "what did you talk about? Why is it that literally, like, just one conversation can get so bad that you treat me that way?"

Like a switch, yeah.

I was like, "why did it spiral so bad that you'd treat me that way?" And he was like, "oh, I don't know. I feel like Jamilla and Niels and Dora are, like, bad influences. I feel like that they've always—" like he's saying things like, "I feel like that they've always, like, fed into my spirals, and they don't support me. And, like, they've always influenced me even in my relationship before you, whenever I'd spiral about my ex-girlfriend, like, they would talk bad about that person" kinda thing. Because I was like, "they don't even know me; why are they talking about me that way? Like, what have you been telling them that would make them talk about me in that way?" Because I am looking at him and I'm like, yeah… I am thinking, "yeah, it's on you because I don't know, like, what are you saying?" Like, I'm sure because he is very lacking in self-awareness of how, like, the words he chooses, how it can affect or how it can read to other people. Like, that's one of the biggest frustrations I've had towards the end of sometimes, like, he would say things, and I'm like, "why don't you understand that if you phrase it that way, that it would appear this way?" kind of thing. And he would just be so clueless about it. And anyway…so we've had so many arguments about that. And I'm like, "your friends, you realize that I've always thought that your relationship is very dysfunctional." And I was like, "I didn't wanna say it, but, like, I've felt that before and I don't know if I'm comfortable with you, like, going and talking to them about me anymore." Because in my head, like, "all you can do is shit talk me to them." Because I'm like, if they have these strong reactions, then it's what you're saying. Then you're saying something that is making them have these strong reactions and I have no idea— you're just shit talking me at that point, and I'm like, "I don't feel comfortable if you talk to them about me or about us." So I basically told him, "please do not talk to them about me or about us anymore. Like, you can still be friends with them. Talk to them about other stuff, but I do not wanna be involved with them, especially because I don't know them.

Yeah.

And I know that even though they don't know me, that they've talked shit about me before.

Yeah.

So that means that it goes back to whatever you're saying to them. And so I don't trust you. I don't trust whatever you're saying to them" basically is how I was feeling. I was like, I feel very unsafe because I felt very unprotected, basically. I felt like 'you are sacrificing me in your conversations to your friends. So I'm like, what the heck?'

Yeah.

I was just like, "don't talk about me to them anymore." A that became an agreement. And then for weeks after that, I've heard so many complaints about, like, "oh, how am I supposed to talk to them about anything when you are literally, like, part of my daily— all throughout my day, you're part of everything, every facet, or category of my life. Like, now it feels shallow if they ask me how things are, and I just say, oh, it's okay, and I can't talk about you" kinda thing. I don't know if I complained about this to you at the time this was happening. But, like, he kept complaining. He was like, "oh, and now it feels like I'm lying to them if I just say, oh, everything's okay." And I'm like, "you literally don't have to talk about me. Like, talk about other stuff. Like, if they ask about me, just say, oh, she's okay. That's it." And then he was like, "then it would feel like lying." And I'm like, "why do you need to talk about me? Like, why do you need to talk about our relationship?" I was just like, "don't talk about us. Keep the relationship." And he was struggling with that concept so hard that he started those conversations. He was like, "yeah, I think it's just—" like he started unpacking it in therapy. He was like, "I think that Jamilla is just so toxic and just, like, very destructive, and I've never considered her to be a friend anyway. She's just, like, my best friend's wife." And I'm over there listening to him, and I'm like, "what?" I was like, "what do you mean?" I was like, "you send her memes. You have an independent chat with her on Instagram. Clearly, she considers you a friend." And he was like, "yeah, the only reason that I started sending her memes is because she complained and threatened physical violence and complained that she felt very left out because I kept sending Niels memes, but I didn't send her any memes. And then now it feels like these people, like Dora, Niels, and Jamilla, like, they they're bad influences on me, and they feed into my spirals. And it feels like they wanna monopolize my life and my time. And it feels like they just want me to be able to give them attention, but they don't want me to have a girlfriend" and stuff like this. And it rubbed me the wrong way so much because it made me feel like: "you're doing to them what you did to me in July." Like, because you're upset with them and you can't handle, like, these, like, difficult feelings around them, you're thinking you just wanna cut off the friendships. Because that's what he's saying. He was like, "I was thinking about just not being friends with them anymore, and I was unpacking, like, the feelings that I have—" because there was a point where, like, whenever Niels and Jamilla would message him, he would literally have breakdowns, and he would have, like, panic attacks. And he said, "I unpacked it in therapy, and my therapist thinks it might be like a PTSD from, like, the books-throwing" or something like that.

Yeah.

And he's like, "which is another issue that I will have to go through." And it was getting so bad for his mental health that he was saying, like, "and I think it's just better if I'm not friends with these people anymore." And he was like, "and, yeah, I never considered Jamilla a friend. She's just like the wife of my best friend. And, like, I feel like Niels himself would be okay, but, like, he has terrible— like, I don't like his choice in in a wife because it feels like she's a bad influence because she would resort to violence, and she's like, very destructive and stuff." And, like, I'm over there thinking, like, these are people— "Dora has known you for four years. Niels and Jamilla have known you for seven years. They were literally just trying to do what friends do, which is, like, take your side. I know it might not have been in the most, like, productive way, or it might not have been in the most healthy way. And, yeah, there might have been issues with the way—" like, I had issues. I was uncomfortable with them. I asked him to, like, don't talk about us to them because, like, your track record in talking to them is basically just shit talking to me to the point that they're having these strong reactions and I just don't trust it anymore. So I'm like, I'm uncomfortable with these people, and now— I'm the one that's uncomfortable with these people, but I'm over there thinking, like, "this is so unfair on them. They're literally just trying to be your friend."

Because you've been on the other side of it.

What?

Because you'd been on the other side of it, so you empathize with them.

It rubbed me the wrong way because it literally felt like he was just trying to take the easy way out. It felt like he didn't know how to deal with, like, these complicated situations, and just cutting them off would be so much easier. And I ended up in a position where I was defending them. Like, we argued for months. He was like, "yeah, I'm thinking I'm not gonna be friends with them." And I was arguing for them. I was like, "look, they were just trying to be your friend. Like, they were the that's what friends do. They're ride or die. Like, I was like, they were trying to be on your side." And he and he was like, "yeah, but they just feed into my spirals, and they're bad influences." And he was saying things like, "and it's not healthy, and it's not the first time they've done that. This is not the first relationship they've done that with." And I'm over there thinking, like— I just— I had so many arguments with him to not cut them off. Because he was struggling so much with, like, how mentally damaging it was whenever Niels and Jamilla send would a text, that he was so— like, his impulse was just to cut off that friendship. And I'm like, "work through it." I'm like, "these people have known you for seven years. They consider you friends. And how dare you say Jamilla is not a friend. She clearly considers you to be a friend, and you're just—" I was just so flabbergasted, and it was very— it was very much like— and this will be clear later, too. Remind me to go back to this.

Okay. laughs

Remind me to go back to this. Remind me to go back to this when I tell you about, like, him wanting to send a message to Dora, right? Because he was very back and forth, and he complained to me so many times. And I watched him have so many, like, breakdowns over, like, texts that Jamilla and Niels sent that made him feel very uncomfortable. And I was like, because of that discomfort, he just wanted to cut them off. And so we spent months arguing about— I was like, "don't do anything rash." I'm just like, "don't do anything rash. You've know these people for years. Consider it. Can it be fixed? Try to fix it." Like, that was what I was arguing for.

Yeah.

So first of all, I was the one who was uncomfortable with these people, and then it felt like I was put in a situation where I had to defend them. Like, I felt like I couldn't even feel safe being uncomfortable with them without him just being like, "let's just cut it off. Let's just cut off the friendship." I'm like, "I didn't ask you to not be friends with them anymore. I just asked you for healthy boundaries and to protect this relationship. That's all." Like, I thought that those relationships needed some boundaries because I thought it was dysfunctional. I thought it was weird. I thought, like, "y'all are unhealthily attached." And I basically just wanted boundaries to protect our relationship. And I wanted to be okay with being uncomfortable with them without you going nuclear and trying to end those friendships, you know? I'm over here like, "I didn't ask you to stop being friends to them. I just asked you to not talk about me to them. Because, like, everything that you told me about when you tell them about me is that then they get mad, and they have these explosive reactions." So now I'm like, "it all just goes back to whatever you're saying. I have no idea what you're saying, but clearly, you're saying something that's making them think that I'm this evil villain" or whatever, right? And then I'm like, "because you were mad at me and you were uncomfortable with me. And now that you're mad at them and you're uncomfortable with them, I can actively see you twisting their personalities into something that probably wasn't what they intended." I—

Yeah.

That was—

That doesn't—

That was—

That doesn't—

Sorry, go ahead. No. I was just gonna say that doesn't, like, help you to feel, like… like, if you see that happening in real time—

And I'm like, "it's very easy for you to just turn around and do that to me next time you're mad at me."

Yeah. Yeah.

And we had this argument where I'm like, "why did you do this to me? Why did you say this?" And he was like, "oh, it's because, like, they said this, and they influenced my thoughts." And then I'm like, "look, I have very strong-willed friends that will call things out to me, tell me as it is, like, literally outright disagree with me. That doesn't mean they're gonna change my mind because I know who I am as a person. I know my own thoughts, and I know, like, what I want. Like, I'm not afraid for these people to, like, to disagree with me. It's not gonna influence me." And that was one argument I've also had with him that ended up being repeated a lot. It's like, "you are too easily influenceable. Like, you can't just, someone says something to you, and you're just, like, gonna go with it." I'm like, that also contributed to that feeling of, like, "I do not feel safe at all because it feels like you don't know what you want. You don't know what you think. You don't know what you believe, and it feels like at any point, anyone could just convince you otherwise."

Yeah.

Because I have straightforward friends like Jen, Angel, John. They would literally just tell me, like, "you're crazy. Like, don't do that. Like, what do you even see in this person?" Like they will =literally, like, outright call me out and disagree with me, and I don't feel like— I feel like that doesn't influence, like, my decisions. Like, I can't blame them for my choices. I still pick what I know and what I want, kinda thing. And I like that they call me out. I like that I have strong-minded friends because they keep me in check. Like, they're a balance for me, right? Like, I like that they have a strong opinion because I don't have to counterargue everything. Because you know how we are, we both are, where we feel like we have to take both sides seriously? I'm like, if someone has a strong opinion, then I'm like, "that's a role that I don't have to take."

laughs Yeah. It cuts your work in half.

Basically and I can still, like, weigh both, like, the remaining role that I have and their opinion, and I'm like, "what do I want?" It's not— obviously, I still take it into consideration, but I can't blame them. Like, I'm not gonna say, like, "oh, it's because, like, they said this, and that's why this is what I'm deciding or this is what I think." I'm like, "it gives me insight, but the final decision's always gonna be mine." And that's what I felt about him. I was like, "you get too easily influenced" even by myself. Like, I ended up where I was watching myself. Like, I was literally self-policing because I didn't wanna accidentally influence him. I just— I wanted him to have his own mind and his own will. I wanted him to know what he wanted. And literally, like, unpacking this in the last two weeks, like, where auntie Khlarisse, like, was the one who helped point it out that I realized, that I was like, "yeah, he just—" Because something that she's repeated a lot in the past weeks, is just that he needs to— he has a lot of growing up to do.

Yeah.

And she was like, "it sounds like he doesn't know what he wants and he's not ready for a relationship."

Yeah.

But, literally, like, okay. So that's not even the end of it, Ellie, because, like I said, like, we had so many months of arguing about this, of arguing about me arguing for your friends because now, like, in your head, your friends have turned into something that I'm like, "I'm pretty sure they're not that. Like, I'm pretty sure that's not who they are, and you've just been so, like, deep into it that you've turned them into these people" kinda thing. And that made me mad because then I was like, "I can't even just be comfortably uncomfortable with these people because now I have to defend them, even though I was the one uncomfortable with them in the first place."

Yeah.

And so it came to the point where one week before the Amsterdam visit, like, he outright spiraled and had a breakdown because he felt like Niels and Jamilla were mad at him because they had expected that during the concert, that they would hang out with him at his house. But, apparently, because I was coming into town, like, they didn't know that I was coming into town and it ruined their plans, and they had these plans for a while already kinda thing. So he felt guilty because he had to bring me up by saying, you know, "Kyla and I are hanging out that weekend, so we can't do it." And that felt to him like he was breaking the promise of not bringing me up to them. And I'm like, "no, that's understandable. Like, if that comes up, like, it's unavoidable." And I was like, "clearly, like, you can deal with that. Like, it sounds like they feel like they had precedence. Like, that this was reserved for them already." And he was like, "but you don't get it, Kyla. Like, I had no idea. Like, these plans were never clarified to me. And, like, this is news to me that they expected that this is what was happening." And I'm over there thinking, like, "they probably thought that it was clear and you probably just never picked up on it."

Yeah.

I'm over there thinking, I was like, "they probably, like, tried to make plans, and it was probably too subtle for you to pick up." And he was, like, having a whole breakdown over this because he was like, "I don't know how I'm gonna juggle with this because now it feels like they're mad at me. And then suddenly, Niels is suggesting, like, a dinner with them." And he knows that I'm uncomfortable with them and he didn't wanna put me in that position. And I'm like, "you know, actually, like, I wanna try."

Yeah.

If he's asking for dinner, in my head, it was like, it's an opportunity for me to get to know them. For me to actually meet them in order to be able to get to know them and to be able to be comfortable with them. And it's an opportunity for you to appease them in a way that would save your friendship. Because, like I said, like, how uncomfortable he was with them at this point, he just wanted to cut the friendship off. Like, it's been weeks and months at this point of arguing about not cutting the friendship off or not cutting the friendship off. So, basically, I said, "I will go to the dinner because then I can keep you company that you wouldn't feel so nervous around them and maybe even have a chance at repair for that relationship, and I get the opportunity to meet them so I can feel comfortable with them and I can get to know them." That was my logic.

Yeah.

So but then, like, the week leading up to that weekend, leading up to that appointment, like, he was so stressed about it. He was so worried. He was so anxious about, like, how Jamilla was gonna act and if she was gonna destructive be again, like, if she was gonna, like— he was, like— his anxiety, like, made mine spike, too, to the point where I was like, I'm gonna buy a war outfit.

laughs Oh my goodness. None of these are doing your own nervous system any good.

Yeah, because he was, like, spiraling. Because he was like, "and now they're mad at me" and all that. And I was like, this is— leading up to that that that dinner, like, there was just so much anxiety around that. And he was just in such a bad mental place, and I was struggling to handle everything. But I was like, "it will be okay." Like, it got so bad to the point that right before we went to the dinner, we came up with, like, cues and hints. Like, "if I rub your arm or if I tap your leg, it means this. It means I don't feel safe. It means maybe back off from this subject" kinda thing. And, like, his anxiety was basically feeding mine by that point. But, like, we'll go there because first of all, I wanna support you, and I wanna back you up. And like, if anything happens, at least I'll be there for you. But also for me, it was like, to me, it was like, "this is also a chance for you to repair the relationship you've been feeling uncomfortable in for months now, and for me to meet these people so I would work towards feeling comfortable with them."

Yeah.

So I met them, and it didn't go too bad. Oh, I also, like, I had to go to the restroom at one point, and I left my phone, sort of recorded the conversation.

Right.

But, like, something else happened pivotal in Amsterdam after that dinner. Is when we went to bed and I was on his phone, and I was anxious, and I was keeping myself busy and trying to calm my thoughts, my racing thoughts in my mind. And I remembered, like, all these times when I brought up— ooh, there was a point, too, where I asked him to stop streaming. I was like, "look, I tried my best to be comfortable with the fact that you're streaming with Dora three times a week, but she makes me so anxious that I'm not comfortable with it anymore. So if you could, like—" Because he said to me before, because I told him how uncomfortable I am with these people, right? This is back before I had to fight for them, basically.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, he told me, like, "do you want me to not stream anymore? Because if you want me to not stream, I'll stop streaming." And I was like, "no, that's not it. It's not that I want you to not stream anymore," but there came a point where it was like, "actually, I feel like I am starting to not be comfortable with it anymore." And I told him. I was like, "so, before, you told me that if I wanted you to not stream anymore, that you would stop. So I am at the point where I'm not comfortable. I don't feel comfortable enough. I don't feel comfortable anymore." Like because that was after the point where I asked him to stop talking about us, and then I found out that he was still talking about us in stream, like, the whole London trip and stuff. I was like, "I'm not comfortable with this anymore. I tried, and, like, all it does is make me anxious." So he stopped streaming. Like, he stopped streaming. And we had so many arguments about that. I was like, "so what exactly was it about July that made you get that bad?" Because like I said, it just damaged to something in us, in a core, like, part of the foundation of the relationship that I was like, "I never thought that you would be capable of the things that you said to me back in July and that you did to me back in July." And so when we were in Amsterdam, and he was sleeping, and I was on his phone, and I was scrolling. And I remembered all the times when I was like, "what were you talking about with Dora?" And he kept saying that, you know, "she has a new number, so, like, I can't find it." So she has a new number, but the past chat was still archived. So I was still able to access it. I was like, literally, like, all the excu— like, every single time we've argued about this and you've made excuses that you wish that you could find out what was said, but you don't have access to it anymore, I found it in literally three minutes. Like, "did you even try to look for this?" kind of thing, like, "were you just trying to hide it?" kind of thing. I scrolled back up to the July time.

Uh-huh.

My time in that—

Oh. Have I lost you or are you just pausing?

I'm trying to figure out how I wanna say this.

Okay.

During that period of time that that night, when I had his phone and I set out, I was like, "I wonder if I can find it myself," and I found it in three minutes, I ended up down a rabbit hole where I discovered a few things that just made so angry. First of all, I found out that the breakup letter that he sent me in July, the end of July, where he was like, "I can't do this anymore. I have tried, and you just don't trust me. So I think that—" like, all the accusations and with all the— like, the final break-up letter from Friday, the 5PM…that Dora co-wrote that. Like, that she helped write that. Like, they literally sat down together and wrote it together. And not just Dora, but he also sent it through ChatGPT snd everything. Like, she didn't just co-wrote it, like, she actively, like, encouraged it in a way where she was like, "oh, I know people like that. They're so toxic. Like, save yourself years of pain and, like, just don't—" like, stuff like that. And they were, like, feeding on each other's vibes so much that they were literally— the way that they were talking about me, she and he was saying, like— for example, like, Dora was saying things like, "oh, yeah, like, I know people like that. Like, those are really toxic girls. Like, save yourself years of pain." And then they were laughing about it because he would respond in a way, he was like, "yeah, this bitch doesn't know that I already scheduled the break-up message, and I'm already breaking up with her tomorrow." Like, "her time is numbered. Her time is limited. Her time is numbered, and she doesn't even know about that." And they were laughing about it. And they were referring to me as "this bitch," "this toxic," and literally, she at one point, she even said, like, "what does this girl even look like?" And then he sent her a picture of what's my Facebook profile photo right now, like, in Australia with the dress and the sunrise. Like, he sent her that photo, and she was like, "oh, she looks so sweet and innocent." And then they went on to laugh about the fact that it's usually the sweet-looking people that you have to worry about. Like, talk like that! First of all, referring to me as "this bitch"? Second of all, laughing at the fact that I didn't know that you already planned to break up with me the next day? Third of all, like, just, like, the mocking! The mocking in that message thread? And then I went on to find out— and this was at the time, right? At the time that he was telling me that, "oh, we just had a conversation about trust and I spiraled." And that's why he was lashing out at me. This was at that period of time. Like, "oh, yeah, we just had a conversation about trust and I spiralled." He totally downplayed it! because that was, like, the way he was talking about me with her, I was like, that is beyond disrespectful that you wouldn't do that to someone you claim to love. And that the fact that you went around days after that and said that you still love me, and that you still wanted to make things work with me, despite the fact that you were just talking about me in that way five days prior? I was— I was—

Yeah.

I was pissed! I was beyond boiled! And she co-wrote your breakup letter? My auntie Khlarisse was just like, "who co-writes someone else's breakup letter?" Like, who does that? Like, literally so many, like, hurtful accusatory things in that letter. I was like, "and you're saying that she helped you write it?" I'm like, "why?" Like, that, again, the boundaries that I had been wanting… I was like, "that's just so, like, wrong, unhealthy, like, dysfunctional." And to add to that, to add to the fact that, like, so many kicks in the gut already with the kind of language that they were using to refer to me? The mocking that he was already, that my time was numbered, and he wanted to break up with me the next day? And the fact that while he was while he was lashing out at me, like, on my end, the fact that I was so considerate and thoughtful about everything he said that I literally did not sleep because I wanted to address and ease his conscience with every single thing, with every single accusation he threw at my feet, and I wrote the twenty three paragraphs? You know what I found out too? At the same night in Amsterdam, at the same night that I found that conversation, I found that those paragraphs that I sent him, he ran through ChatGPT.

Right.

And it's not even a run through ChatGPT, like, "what's your opinion," or "can you respond to this in this way?" It was a very dismissive, "Kyla sent this to me. Let's respond to it and, like, have the final nail in the coffin. Here's paragraph one. Here's paragraph two. Here's paragraph three." And then copy paste, copy paste, and that's what he responded to me. It was just like: paragraph one, and then he copy-paste the response, send it to me, and then paragraph two. Like, it wasn't even— there wasn't instructions. There wasn't any, like, asking for advice. It was just: "here are the paragraphs. Can you write the response for me?" to ChatGPT. And I'm like, "you're telling me that the thing I lost sleep over, the thing that I was very considerate about that I spent so much, like, thought and effort into, like, you literally just threw off to ChatGPT and responded that way to me? And, like, that that was just very dismissive and very inconsiderate and literally, like, I lost sleep over this. I was up for hours, and you just ran it through ChatGPT and copy-paste it and sent it to me."

Yeah.

And then I got mad because I also found out that, like, there was a phone conversation apparently with Dora that I didn't know about. And I'm like, "you already knew I was uncomfortable with this person. The people that you have been uncomfortable with, I have tried to make sure that I had your permission if I was hanging out with them. I have been very transparent if they texted me, if they messaged me, if they invited me somewhere. I have told you, and I have willingly let you stay on the line whenever I'm hanging out with them so I can, like, make you feel at ease, and you don't have to worry that, like, anything is happening that's wrong or that I'm hiding anything.
And I literally found out that you had a conversation that you never told me about? That sounds like you're hiding shit from me." I'm like, "what?" Like, all this at the same night. I found all of this out at the same night. The fact that you had a phone conversation you never told me about even though you already knew that I was uncomfortable with her. The fact that, apparently, she co-wrote my break-up letter. And when you told me that, "oh, yeah, we just had a conversation about trust, and I spiraled." Like, the way you downplayed that? The type of language you used when you were talking about me? The mocking? The belittling? And the fact that you ran my everything that I put so much care and effort into, through ChatGPT, and just dismissively, like, just shortcut, like, copy-pasted the answer to me? Like, I found all four of that out at the same time, at the same night, in the same period, like, of these couple of hours. And I was so angry by that point, like, literally so mad. He was right beside me sleeping. I woke him up just to pick a fight with him because I was like, "what the fuck is this?"

Yeah. Yeah. No wonder you feel betrayed.

I was like, "what the fuck is this, Sven? You downplayed July so bad. You were just like, oh, that was just like a advice stream that turned into a conversation and turned about a conversation about trust. And then I just spiraled from there." I was like, "you didn't tell me it was this bad. And you talked about me in this way?" I was like, "yeah, how—" In my mind, it's like, "that's not love." I'm like, "I don't know what you thought—" It's like, "you don't do that to people you love!"

Yeah. There's venting and then there's…that. Yeah. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Sorry, I just have to—

No worries.

—blow my nose.

That's okay. That's okay.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Ellie, that was the angriest and most rage-filled moment. One of the most— like, when we were physically together, the fight that I picked that night, I was like, "what—" literally, that was my biggest feeling. I'm like, "what the fuck is this?"

Yeah.

And I don't know. We talked through it, but, clearly, I was already feeling very unsafe since July because of everything that happened since then and, like, how he was treating or talking about his friends. And it was just weird to me. I was like, "you're basically doing to them what you did to me in July." And then finding out more details about July? And I was like, "I already felt hurt with July, and I had my reservations. And I already felt like I didn't deserve this." To find out these details to how bad it got? I was like, it's not even a "this was unfair. You made a mistake. Like, I didn't deserve this." It was outright "that's just not love. Like, that's not love. Whatever that is, that's not love. I don't understand how you could come back and say these things, and say you love me, and yet you did all this to me." Like, I just—

Yeah. I mean, I would say that…not me defending him at all. I would say in the moment then he was writing that stuff and talking to Dora, yeah, I would say that, you know, he didn't love you. He did not love you. And it's entirely possible that after he came out of that state into a decent state, he did then love you again.

All it made me feel, Ellie, is it made me feel just as blindsided as July. It made me feel very unsafe. It made me feel like, "what else are you lying to me about? What else did you fail to tell me? What else are you hiding from me?" Like, I'm like, "and who are you? Like, who is this person that claims to love me and is capable of saying that type of things about me," right? And I'm like—

Yeah.

So that happened. And then because I finally was able to meet, like, Niels and Jamilla, I was like, at least there's some steps where I can— like, there's something to build on with, like, getting to know them and getting comfortable with them.

Yeah.

In between Amsterdam and Mexico, there were still arguments about Niels and Jamilla's situation, but I feel like for Niels and Jamilla at least, like, that dinner saved them. Because after that, it was less tense and less intense and less, like, less mentally damaging for him. Like, it definitely like, like I had hoped, it was, like, a step towards repair, basically. So that relationship, at least, was starting to get, like he was starting to get more comfortable with them again. Because he was starting, like, pre-December, between September and December, he was just continuously spiraling down like, "I just am not comfortable with them anymore and a text from them, like, set me off in spirals," and then very mentally, like, they were just damaging, like, mentally for him, and it was just starting to get, like it was a downward spiral. Like, I witnessed it as a downward spiral. But ever since we had that dinner with them in December, it plateaued. And then it was, like, starting to, like, build back up, sort of. But with Dora, like, I have not met her and, like, especially after what I found out in Amsterdam? Especially with all that new information? It only made that worse. Like unlike Niels and Jamilla where it was starting to get better, that subject of Dora just became a worse, like, point of contention for us. Because I was like, "what the fuck?" She was becoming, like, just outright just a trigger now. I was just like, "what the fuck?" And because of that, and at this point, he was already starting to feel so guilty, right? Because he's like, "I'm running out of excuses for not being able to show up to stream anymore. I feel bad. I feel like they can tell that I'm just making excuses." I literally told him, "you can just tell them that you don't wanna stream anymore," but he didn't wanna do that. He didn't wanna, like, appear as a bad guy. I'm just—

Yeah.

Like, hindsight is 20-20, right? Like, he couldn't, like, outright just say, like, "I don't feel comfortable streaming anymore." He wanted to send, like, a whole ass apology slash explanation letter to Dora to justify his absence because he felt so bad that he's just been making excuses every single time. Like, she'd ask if they wanna stream. And I was like, "you know you don't owe anyone that." I was like, "you can literally just say you don't want to," but he didn't wanna do that, right? I was like, "you know you can just, like, you don't have to explain yourself, like, make it some big emotional thing. Like, if you don't want to, if they're your friends, like, they'll understand if you're not up for it right now." Like, literally, like, Angel would give me space, I give you space when it seems like you don't have the energy to hang out. Like, and this is what I've also told him, when he was still streaming. I'm like, "you can say no if you're too exhausted after work that you don't wanna stream. You can just say no instead of forcing yourself and then complaining to me about it afterwards that, oh, like, that 'I always feel like I have to keep up the vibes, and I always feel like I'm responsible for the stream'." So I'm like, "you don't have to be. That's her stream. Like, literally, that's not your responsibility." He was like, "no, but I feel obligated." And I'm like… Anyway, so by this point, between Amsterdam and Mexico, he had already, like, voiced that he was like, "I'm running out of excuses, and I'm gonna write…" Like, he wanted to send a message. And I'm like, "okay, like, I don't think you need to, but because you want to, I'll support it. Like, write the message." It was like pulling teeth out of a horse the amount of weeks he kept postponing it, and I'm like— and I kept flagging with him, I'm like, "look, this has been on the to-do list for forever. It's literally weighing heavy on the mental load now. Like, it's making me so anxious that you just keep postponing this. It just needs to be done."

Yeah.

The first draft that he came up with, let me send to you. Let me message you the first draft.

You don't need to, by the way.

I want to. I want to. So you will understand. I want to. The very first draft. Because we definitely didn't send the first draft. But this was the first draft. I was like, "okay, look, you have been putting this off for the longest time. You kept saying that you wanted to do this. You just need to sit down and do it now. Because, like, at this point, like, it's been postponed so much, it's literally weighing on the mental load, right?"

Uh-huh. Uhm…working. Come on.

I sent it to you on WhatsApp, and you read it, and you tell me what you think. This was the rough draft. It's the initial draft.

Yep. Did Dora and Jamilla and Niels know each other? Or are they, like—

I think Niels, like, knows about Dora, sort of, but, like, not, like, closely. Like, he's just— yeah, they're not close.

Okay. Right. I don't know why, but I thought that they're all, like, not a unit, but you know what I mean, I think—

Like, I think when Sven joined Dora's community, he told Niels about it, because he's known Niels longer, right? And then Niels sort of, like, joined too, but he's not, like, actively following it or being, like, a big fan, kind of thing. But he's, like, part of the Discord server, kind of thing. But that Discord server has, like, what, 300 members? Or something along those lines.

Okay, so that's the draft…

Did you read all of it?

Yeah.

Okay. Now, tell me your thoughts.

And this was after you found out the…

This was…let me double check that, make sure… Yes, this was after that. This was after I found—

I'm super super confused. So did he, like, join a stream which was, like, a relationship livestream?

No, it's a stream where they all play Call of Duty together, and they have their mics on and they chat. So they just chat about other stuff too while they're playing.

Okay.

So apparently, like, during this game session, like, they ended up talking about long-distance relationships and that type of stuff.

Right. Okay. So it wasn't like her going like, "Hey, would you like to join this stream about relationship advice?"

Yeah.

Because that's what it sounds like almost.

Yeah.

Like, "Hey, do you want to come to my show and talk about your relationship problems, Sven?"

None of that, Ellie. Just give me your first impressions. Like, what do you what do you think about that?

I honestly, I don't know. Like, I mean, I'm thinking that—

So what do you think about the message itself, like the draft?

I think, that probably, if I were Dora and I got this message, I would be, like, "is that it?" or something.

You know what I thought?

Go on.

I was like, and I outright called him out on this. I was like, "Sven, do you realize you just threw me under the bus?" Literally, like, I didn't even— okay, I didn't even tell Angel anything about it. I just sent her the draft. I'm like, "okay." Because I was talking to Angel, and I was like, "yeah, Sven is writing his third draft." And she was like, "third draft?" I'm like, "yeah, here's his first draft," and then I sent it to her. And then within the first few sentences, she was like, "I don't like this." And I'm like, "okay, I wasn't crazy for feeling that way." Because the way he phrased it, he was like, "oh, yeah, I can't join anymore because, like, because, you know, the break-up in July, and because of that stream, you know, it left scars for her. Like, even months before the stream happened, she already asked me not to share any details about our relationship with you and other friends." And he's saying, like, "I wanna respect her feelings. I wanna respect that hurt." And I'm over here like, "you realize that, first of all, you made me sound like a controlling person. Second of all, you just threw me under the bus. Third of all, there's no accountability in that message whatsoever. It's not even like a 'I hurt her and I'm doing this to protect our relationship.' It's like, 'I just wanna respect her feelings because, like, she felt hurt' kinda thing. And she already asked me not to talk to y'all." And I was like, "why would you phrase it that way? Like, I outright called him out—

I think I was under the impression that Dora was already, like, he'd already… I don't know. I think I had the impression that Dora was already aware that he wasn't really talking to her about you or anything like that.

No. He just stopped attending streams. Basically, he just ghosted them, and that's why he felt so bad that he wanted to write a message to explain it.

Right.

And this is his message to explain it.

Yes, okay. I can understand that.

And so, like, when Angel read it, she's like, "why did he make you sound that way? Like, why did he make you sound controlling?" I'm like, "right? Does he not realize how this reads off to other people?" And even when my Aunt Khlarisse read it, she was like, "there is no accountability here." And I'm like, "right?" I'm like, I'm over here. And I'm like, "you told me you wanted to send a message to explain yourself because you felt bad for ghosting this community, and the message that you come up with throws me under the bus?" And this is where it clicked for me. I'm like, "okay, so when you're hurt about me and you go and talk to them and throw me un—" It's basically like, "so you go to your friends, and then you blame me for whatever it is that that hurt me. And then when you come back to me, you blame them for whatever it is that you did that hurt me." And then I'm like— it was a very like—

Yeah.

There is no owning up to anything. There's no actually, like, taking accountability and like, fixing things. Like, "you can't even say, like, a plain no." Like, you could say, like a "oh, yeah, I hurt her, and I don't wanna hurt her anymore." It's a "she's hurt, and she has scars, and I wanna respect those." I'm like, "what kind of weak-ass, like, no spine response is that?" And I'm like, "it felt very much like you threw me under the bus." I'm like, "you sacrificed me to, like, appease these people." And that's what my Auntie Khlarisse said. It's like, "it felt a lot like he was trying to appease both sides." And I'm like, "yeah, which is, that's exactly it. There's no accountability." It's like, "it's not my fault; It's her fault. And it's not it's not my fault; it's their fault. It's their fault that I did this. It's her fault that I did it." And the pattern was starting to emerge for me. I was like, "damn. So, like, back in July, like, when you were mad at me and you were complaining to these people, like, it was my fault. And then when you came back to me, it was their fault. And now that you're trying to talk to them again, it's my fault again." I'm like, "where are you in all this?" Like, where is the, like, "here are my boundaries. I wanna protect this relationship." Like, I felt very unprotected. I felt very unsafe. I felt like, yeah, like no, that's it. I felt unprioritized. I felt unsafe. I felt unprotected. And I felt like I was thrown under the bus.

Did you manage to say any of that to him at the time, or?

I told him that, "yeah, that sounds like you're throwing me under the bus. And Angel even said that it sounds like you're just painting me as someone that's controlling." That's why there was a second draft and a third draft. Because I was like, "why did you phrase it that way?" I was like, "Sven, do you not realize how this reads to someone else? Like, do you not realize how that comes off?" And now it pissed me off because he just seems so clueless. And I was like, "how can you be this clueless?"

Yeah. I mean, I would hazard a guess, just as it could be me projecting onto him, but I would hazard a guess, that he has gotten used to life happening to him, and so he doesn't take responsibility for—

It's always someone else's fault.

Yeah. Or the universe's fault, or… Yeah, I recognize that feeling in myself. I might just be projecting onto him. And I think…yeah. I think if there's, like… Sorry, my brain's a bit stuck. Well, I think, just from what I know about Sven, which admittedly is not much, but I wouldn't be shocked to find out that his mindset is—

I wouldn't either.

—like, "life just happens to me, and I have to try and, like, just—"

I wouldn't either. And part of me—

"—and so therefore, I have to, like, just kind of appease people." It doesn't…like…

Yeah, and part of me even feels like "it's very people-pleaser part of you" as well.

People-pleaser, yeah.

But also, like, and Auntie Khlarisse helped make this very clear for me. I'm like, "I expected you to protect us. I expected you to know what you want. I expected you to lead the relationship." And I just felt very unprotected and unsafe in it. And the thing is, this is not the end of the story.

Yes.

This happened in between, like, Amsterdam and Mexico. In Mexico, like, I floated the idea of, like, creating a group chat with Niels and Jamilla because, like, I've met them. We've had time to, like, settle the…what do you call it? Settle the feelings, and settle the differences, and it's, like, had time to settle. So it's not like as tense of a situation. I'm like, "okay, I would love to be able to interact with them in a group setting." So we started a group chat in Instagram. But he was so worried that I was gonna pick a fight over the whole throwing books thing, because that was a big deal to us. Because me and Angel, we were just very, like, we were just very flabbergasted that that was even a thing. Because I literally, I've had arguments with him back in, like, October, November, December, where I was like, "and you just let them? Like, and you just let it happen? And you just stood there?" And he was like—

There you go. It's that letting things happen, but, like, "oh, this is just what the universe is doing to me," or—

I know. But like—

That very passive— Yes.

I was like, "so you just—?" Because at this time, he was complaining, right? Because he was like, "I don't even know what kind of friends does that. Like, why would friends do that? They're not really my friends." Because this was the time when he really wanted to cut off the friendship with them, right? And I was like, "Sven, like, set boundaries." I was like, "why did you let that happen?" He was like, "what kind of friend would do that? And I felt very threatened, like, physically." I'm like, "Sven, did you not leave the room? Did you not leave the house?" And he was he was saying, like, "this was one of the times—" Because, like, we were broken up at the time, so we were not in a relationship. And he said that if we were in a relationship, that he would have called me to talk to me about it. Because that's what he did when he met his dad again for the first time in 10 years. Like, when he was feeling very dysregulated and threatened emotionally, he called me and leaned on me. And I appreciated that. And I was able to be there for him. But because we weren't in a relationship at that time when that fight happened and they apparently threw a book at him, like, he wasn't able to call them, right? Like, he wasn't able to call me. Like he said, "like, if we were still together, I would probably have called you" kinda thing. And I was like, "no." I was like, "why didn't you walk out?" I was like, "you don't let people do that to you." I was like, "me and Angel, like, if we did that to each other, we wouldn't be friends. That's not a healthy friendship." I was like, "why did you take that?" And he was like, "well, it's, like, in a small town, and I was visiting them for— like, I traveled four hours to see them, and I was sleeping in their living room, and he felt like he had no escape, and nothing was open because it was 2AM, like, what am I to—" I'm like, "I don't care if nothing's open. Go to a gas station and wait till 4AM when something opens. You don't take that."

laughs

I was so mad. I was like, "what the heck?" I was like, "why didn't you do anything? Like, set boundaries." I'm like, "that's unhealthy. Stand up for yourself." That was a fight, and that was such a big fight and a reoccurring fight, and, like, such a point of contention that by the time— even though after that, I met them, and then by the time Mexico happened, things have calmed down, and I was like, "let's do a group chat." And he was just really worried of, like, "do not start a fight with them. Don't bring that up." Because we have argued about that so many times, so don't bring it up because he didn't want us to start a fight. I was like, "yeah. That's fine. I'm not going to start a fight with them." Anyway…so…

Do you think maybe there's a little bit of— it's just a thought that dropped into my head, and I think I already know the answer. But I'll say, I think, like, do you think that he thinks that when you were talking to me or to Luna or to Jen or to Angel about, you know, the relationship difficulties and struggles, do you think he thought you were talking about him in the same way as he was talking about you?

I have no idea, Ellie. All I know is that I've always had a baseline protective instinct when it came to him. And that's part of the feeling of betrayal that I can actually verbalize right now, is that, "why am I even protecting this person when I was never protected by this person?" Like, I'm like—

You know, with you telling me exactly, like, what you found out in Amsterdam, I'm like, "oh, I wish you'd felt, I don't know, I wish you'd felt able to. I wish you'd felt safe enough to tell me—

I felt very much like—

—what you discovered at that time.

I felt very much like, "I don't wanna ruin his reputation. I wanna protect this person. I love this person, and I wanna give him grace. He made a mistake." Like, I had so many concessions and excuses for him, which is what it felt like towards the end whenever, like, it was another failure and another, like, "unable to do this." I was like, at this point, it really just is all just starting to sound like excuses. Like, all the postponing with the Dora message, I'm like, "literally stop postponing it. Like, this is just starting to, like, you need to just sit down and actually do it." Like, "we're not gonna make excuses anymore" kinda thing. Like and I realized that, like, that's why until now, like, I've never been able to actually talk about it, like, not publicly, but, like, talk about it, like, frankly, like, bluntly. And it's because, like, that part of me that loves him wants to make concessions for him, wants to protect him, wants to make excuses for him. And the part of me that is the gothic teenager with the hellfire and the raging brimfire that just wants to rain down fire and anger and scorn, like, out of that betrayal is very much like "that's just—" Like, would scream at me all the time being like, "stop making excuses. That's just an excuse. Like, no more excuses" kind of thing. But, what I was trying to say—

But I feel like—

Sorry, go ahead?

Sorry, this is just my feeling guilty-ness that's coming out, and it's not about me. But I do just want to say sorry. Like, I feel like there are things that I've said and expressed, which I mean, partly because, you know, I didn't necessarily have the full picture because you were trying to give him grace on, you know. And, like—

I was very protective of him. For the longest time, I was very protective of him.

Yeah. But I feel like if I'd known that that's how he was talking about you in July— I mean, obviously, you didn't know that that's how he was talking about you in July. You only found out much, much later. But then if I found out that that's how he'd been talking to you in July, then, like— I also have a different opinion about, like, gut feelings now. And, like, you know, all the times that you sort of said, "oh, I just have this gut feeling it's not gonna work out."

I've always known that I have very strong instincts, and even my Aunt Khlarisse has pointed out that "you know better. You just need to work on listening to yourself and trusting yourself." And I'm like, "it's not that I don't trust myself because there is a part of me that screams like, 'you knew this; you could see this coming.' It's more of a 'I really wanted to believe that he could be better'."

Yeah.

I really wanted to believe in this person. I really wanted to believe that that you did wanna be better, that you were capable of being better, that you could be better. Let me just— but, yeah, it's not— it's— this story isn't even finished. What was I saying? Like, I do admit that, yes, when things felt so overwhelming that I didn't know how to handle it and I couldn't stand it, I didn't know how to juggle it or hold it, that I would vent, like, to Angel or to Jamie, who's another of my co-workers who's really good at listening, that I would vent to some coworkers, especially when I'm like, "I am not crazy for this. Why are you making me feel crazy for this?" Like, for very choice events. But I never— I admittedly would say that I never gave the full picture to the extent of what it actually was because I did, even until now, there's still parts of me that still feels kind of protective that I did—

Yeah, of course.

Yeah. That there were a lot that I didn't speak out for. And that was another thing. That's why the story isn't finished. It's because in that group chat, like, there came a point after Mexico where, like, Jamilla made some sort of joke in the group chat about, like, "oh, and then we're gonna throw—" like, "I'm gonna—" like "this is why, like, we throw books. Like, it makes me wanna throw a book at my brother's head" kinda thing? And then it rubbed me the wrong way because it triggered so many of those past arguments that I was like "oh, that reminds me. I actually still have beef with you on this" is what I said in the group chat. And then Sven was napping at the time. I woke him up. I was like, "Sven, I know that I promised you that I'm not gonna pick a fight, but I do feel like I have to address this. Like, I'm gonna start something. Like, I'm actually gonna, like, bring this up because it bothers me." And this is another thing that I was arguing to him about, like, back in between September and December when he would tell me how torn up about it he was that they did this, and then the jokes that they would make about it. I was like, "that's disrespectful.
Why would they think that it's okay to make jokes about it?" And I told him that, like, "did you call them out on it? Like, if they think that it's fine, like, have you stated your boundaries?" is what I was— like, I was— because at this point, like, I've been with him for so long. I already know that this person does not know how to pick up on subtle insinuations or subtleties or cues in conversation. So they might have thought they communicated something and he didn't pick it up. And he's also very unaware about the type of insinuations or subtle communications that he's laying down or, like, that he's portraying. So he might have said something in a way that he didn't realize that this is how it's reading, kinda thing. So that's why I was like, "are you sure you told them that this bothers you? Are you sure—" Like, I kept saying things like, "why are they comfortable with making jokes about it? It must come back you to and whatever how you said, however you said it." I'm like, "are you sure they know?" And he was like, you know, "again, I've tried—" and he would say, like, "you don't get it. I've tried to bring this up with them, like, so many times, like, seven or eight times, and they're not picking up on it." And I'm like, "Sven, how did you try to bring it up? Were you direct about it? Or are you trying to appease them again? Are you trying to people-please" kind of thing? And we had so many arguments about that. That's why it rubbed me the wrong way when Jamilla made a joke about that in our group chat. I was like, "okay, look, I am trying to build a relationship with them. I'm trying to actually build a friendship with them, and I'm trying to be genuine and authentic about it. I am not gonna be able to be that way unless I bring this up. Because if it bothers me, it will feel fake if I'm just gonna pretend like I'm okay with it," you know?

And also you're, like, implicitly endorsing that behavior.

Yeah. And I, no, I wanted an authen— I wanted a real, like, authentic relationship with these people. I'm not just trying to please them. Like, so if I disagree with that, if I feel very bothered about that… I woke Sven up, and I'm like, "I know you told me in Mexico that you don't want me to start a fight, but I do feel the need to address this because it did bother me. And I don't wanna act like it didn't bother me" kinda thing. So I woke him up, and then he read the message where I was like, "speaking of, I have beef with you about that." And Jamilla was like, "oh, what," like, she asked about it. She asked about it, and Niels was also, like, wondering what it was. And that's when I woke Sven up, and I was like, "I am not trying to pick a fight with them, but I do feel the need to address this. And I know that you were uncomfortable with it. That's why I'm waking you up and letting you know." And I literally ran all my messages through him. And I was like, "are we comfortable with this?" But we had a very mature conversation with Niels and Jamilla. Like, I explained to them. I was like, "hey, we actually had fights about this before, and I am bothered about it because of the way that it affected Sven, where there were times where he would just have outright breakdowns because of, like, this event" kinda thing. And they seemed surprised. Like, for them, it was like, "we didn't—" Like, even Niels apologized. Niels said something about, like, "oh, you might not know this about us, but, like, we're very direct, but also we speak in metaphors, and we would actually never do that. Like, we would we would never do that to Sven." And Jamilla was like, "thank you for telling me. I'm gonna have some time to process this. Like, I was not aware." And Niels apologized. He's like, "we did not know that you fought about this. We were just very happy-go-lucky living our lives. We weren't even aware that you guys fought about this." And my inner, like, restrained teenage rebel was side-eyeing Sven really hard, like, "so…what is it that you actually told them? Why is it that they seem surprised?" And Jamilla's like, "I'm gonna take some time to think about it and then respond to it." And then she messaged him on WhatsApp. Like, she was like, "so, about the thing that Kyla brought up on Instagram, I feel like it's easier if I can talk about this in Dutch. Is it true? Like, what's going on here?" And this entire time, right, when I told Sven that I felt the need to bring this up, his mentality was just "keep me out of it; just don't involve me" kinda thing. Like, "I know that you feel the need to bring this up, but I really did not wanna have this conversation at all." So I was like, "that's understandable,
but I wouldn't be, like, authentic to myself unless, like, I brought it up." So he was very bothered that he was like, "you are the one that asked, yet Jamilla is coming to our group chat on WhatsApp and is basically asking me for answers there. Like, even though you're the one that brought it up." And I was like, "yeah, that bothers me too that she's trying to, like, bring this conversation to another thing where I'm the one that brought it up, and I'm not witnessing, like, the conversation. This is my concern that I'm bringing up. But she might just be confused because she might not have been aware about this beforehand." I'm like, "then you should just explain your side." And he was like, "no. I was already over this. I didn't wanna talk about this at all. You were the one that felt the need to bring this up" kinda thing. And I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. I was like, "well, she did say that it's just more comfortable for her to talk about it in Dutch. Like, I can understand that. If, like, English is your second language and, like, if it's something emotional or something relevant like this, I can understand why—"

You're wanting to talk in your first language.

Yeah. And so I told him. I was like, "but I do understand why you feel uncomfortable that they're taking this to you instead of, like, answering me outright in the group chat. Instead, they're, like, trying to sideline the conversation. So just tell them that they can have the conversation here, and they can speak in Dutch. Like, Google Translate exists for a reason. I wouldn't be offended if they felt the need. Like, if they couldn't find the words in English and felt like they could better explain themselves in Dutch just to address it here." And so that's what he told them.
He was like, "yeah, like, I don't feel the need to bring that up anymore. Like, it doesn't affect me anymore. It was Kyla who wanted to talk about it. Like, she's the one that's still bothered about it. Like if you could just respond where she can also see," basically, it's how he responded to them. And I was like, "yeah, but also, Sven, like, she's asking for explanation because she probably doesn't understand, like, how you were feeling because I know how you get where you don't know how to outright say how you're feeling. I know that you like to appease and people-please, and you don't directly say it because you, like, feel bad if they get mad at you." I'm like, "she wants some explanation. Just explain to her." And he was so offended. He was like, "I wanted to be left out of this. I didn't see a need to bring this up again. I didn't see a need to talk about this again. And you pushed it, and now you pushed me in this situation." And I felt very abandoned. I was like, "no, they're just asking for explanation. Like how I can't speak for you. All I can speak is what I witnessed, which is, like, your breakdowns. I witnessed how negatively it affected you mentally. Like, that's what I'm speaking with, but your experience, like, you're the only one that can speak to that. So why don't you explain it to them?" And he was like, "I just didn't wanna have this conversation. I wasn't ready for the conversation." And I'm over there thinking, I was like, "I don't think you would have ever been ready for this conversation because I don't think you wanted to have this conversation because I think you were avoiding this conversation." And we fought about that the next day, he was like, "well, now it's gonna make me sound like a liar because they're saying that they would never do that to me, but that's not how I remember it, but I also know that I can't trust my own memory. So what if I'm remembering it wrong?" I'm like, "Sven, you had so many times where you complained about this to me that you remembered it that way, and you unpacked that in therapy. If you're remembering it wrong, like—" First of all because he's like, "it's been so long now that I don't have the details clearly" because he has a notoriously bad memory. He's like, "I don't trust my memories anymore." I'm like, "okay, you don't trust your memories, but you talked to me about this immediately after it happened for so many times, and you unpacked it in therapy. And the only way, if you are misremembering details, the only way to know is if you talk to them about it, is if you addressed it, is if you say 'this is how I remember it', and they say 'this is how they remember it', and you hash it out, and you can find out the truth that way." But he really just wanted to avoid the conversation, and it pissed me off because I felt so abandoned in it. Like, you're just gonna have me, like, have this conversation and not even explain your side, the side that that I was bothered about? The whole reason that I was bothered about this is because how it was affecting you. And you can't even explain to them why it was affecting you the way it was. Because he was like, "remember, Kyla, you weren't there. So stick to just what you know, and, like, just your own facts and how it affects you." Like, basically, his attitude was "leave me out of it" kind of thing. Like "I wash my hands out of it. Leave me out of it. Don't let him touch me." And I'm like—

laughs The core in that logic is that the way it affected you is because it affected him.

That's what happened. I was like, "the only reason it bothered me is because of how it affected you." I felt very abandoned. I felt like, "you left me to fight back. And I was trying to just bring up the fact that it bothered me because of how it affected you?" So that happened. That happened. And as mature adults, like, to her credit, like, Jamilla wasn't as destructive as he made her out to be. Like, we were actually able to talk about it like mature adults. And like, not like, he was worried that we were gonna, that I was starting a fight, and that we were gonna fight. And, like, even Jamilla outright said, like, "oh ye of little faith," like, "you don't give us enough credit." And the rebel in me that's tied up in the corner is side-eyeing him so hard throughout all these happenings.

Anyway so, like, all this happened with his friends, and then, you know, we had other issues too, aside from that. Like, these are just, his friends are some of the big—

This happened in Mexico?

No, this was after Mexico. This was after March. So between March and April when we break broke up, this happened. And like I said, we had other issues. Like, these are just some of the biggest issues. It's the whole reoccurring friends thing, which was the topic of so many arguments and so many issues, and a cost of so many, like, "I feel unsafe and you failed to protect us." Literally,
what was I thinking? There came a point, like, the night before we broke up where he was he was like, I'm gonna go game with Niels, and we're gonna catch up, and then I'm gonna share with you the recording afterwards. And I'm like, "cool, I can focus on my work." And then he randomly, like, just texted me, and he was like, "oh, by the way, Niels and Jamilla asked about Dora, and I was trying to explain to them, but I had to go pee, and so I had to step out. And then so there's a part that's missing in the recording." And part of me is just, like, "???" He sent me the recording, like, over three hours of gaming and then, like, forty, thirty, forty-five minutes after games just chatting. And I'm like, "I don't even care about the three hours of gaming talk you had, but when it came relevant to us and things that actually were my concerns, like, it seems very convenient that you went out and, like, you stepped out and there's a missing part of that conversation." And he was like, "oh, I was trying really hard to be transparent". And in his defense, he kept explaining what went on during that missing conversations. Like, "nothing really happened. It's just they were just reading the screenshots I sent them, and then they said that I say a lot of things for things that I don't really mean" is basically what he said. And they even suggested that he use AI to help with his responses because his responses are very vague and turnaround. And I'm like, I have first-hand experience on this. I am pretty sure he does use AI. Because when he has used AI with me and I could sense it, I was like, "did you use ChatGPT to respond to me?" It becomes more confusing because AI, like, adds, like, inflections or insinuations that he might not have intended.

Yeah. Yeah. And he might not pick up on it.

Yeah. Exactly. So I was like, part of me was like, I was thinking like, "oh, it's funny that they're suggesting this to him, but he literally does that, and it makes everything all the more confusing whenever he does that" kind of thing. Oh, and also during that fight— not that fight.
During that discussion (because it was a very mature discussion. We didn't fight.) we aired. I was like, "I'm uncomfortable with this," and they acknowledged it. And then they talked about what they were uncomfortable with, and I acknowledged it. Like, it was very mature. Like, yeah, Sven was worried it was gonna be a fight, but, like, I actually respected them for, like, how they handled that. Like, during that, when they said, like, "oh, we're so sorry. Like, we didn't know you guys fought about us, and we were just happy-go-lucky living our own lives." Like, I got the sense that they thought that I fought against them, and I had this very injustice feeling that, if they only knew how much I defended them and defended their relationship, and I didn't say it out loud.
Like, I said it to Sven. I was like, "they don't even know that I defended them. I defended them hard." But I didn't say it to them because I was protecting Sven's relationship and his reputation with them.

You were trying not to, like you did with us.

Like, I was being very protective of Sven and his reputation and his relationship with them. And I felt, there was a part of me that I was like, "this is so unfair. Like, the injustice, they probably think that I was, like, against them. I was the one defending them." Like, that kind of thing. But uhhh… wait, what was I talking about right before I got back to that?

You said "during the fight, wait, it wasn't a fight, it was a mature discussion."

Oh, no. No, I remember now. It was that gaming. Yeah, the games. And I was like, I don't think that Sven, like, literally, like, was trying to hide anything because he was very insistent about being transparent about what happened during that few minutes when he went to pee. I was just like, "it was very inconsiderate of you. Like, you didn't even think about how it would affect me? Because there have been multiple times when you have been gaming with other people, and you have literally just told them, like, I have to take the dogs out or I have to go pee, I'll be right back. But with this particular conversation, that you know that is related to and involves us, that you know that is a big point of contention and concern with us, that you just take the phone with you and just are fine with having a missing part of the conversation. Like, you weren't even thinking about me. Like, you weren't even considering me or my feelings. You weren't protecting me. You weren't protecting my feelings. Like, you didn't think, like, 'I need to protect her feelings.' You were just not thinking, and that's, like, the biggest, like, thread throughout, like, every single concession and grace and excuse I make for him. It's just, like, "he's not aware. He's not aware. He didn't mean it that way. He, he just, like, made a mistake. Like, he never thought about it this way." But there is a point where it's like, "stop making excuses, and how about you actually think about me?"

Yeah. Like there is that saying—

Like, how about you actually prioritize me? Like, how about you actually think about me when you make any sort of decisions and moves? Because that's what I naturally do about you! There was a point when I literally outright told him, when I was defending his friends, and he was like, "why are you defending them? It's just so much easier to cut them off." And I'm like, "look, you need people on your side that will be ride or die for you. If, god forbid, we ever break up, you need people who you can vent about me to, who will take your side." And like, literally thinking about that now, I'm like, "well, that's a fulfilled prophecy." I was like, "I made sure that you had that support system that if something, god forbid, happened to us, that you wouldn't have, like, a lack of people that you could vent about me to. Even if, at that point, it feels very much like I'm sacrificing myself."

Yeah.

I literally sacrificed my own comfort zones for these friends that have talked shit about me without knowing me because of whatever you told them. Anyway…

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So that gaming session with Niels and Jamilla and that fight, I was like, "okay, at this point, you need to stop making excuses about, like, 'oh, I didn't think about it. Like, I didn't mean it that way'. Like, at this point, you really just need to be, like, prioritizing us, thinking about me in your decisions, and protecting us, and protecting my feelings. Like, I feel very unsafe and unprotected around you" kinda thing. And that was the night before we broke up. And so we broke up, and then the whole 2 weeks happened. Ellie, one of the last times I talked to you, and then I started talking to Sven again. One of our last conversations, do you know that this man accused me of being controlling? And he was like, "oh, yeah, and I was so uncomfortable about stopping the streams, but because you were so controlling—" and I was like, "excuse me?"

I do remember you saying something about this, yeah.

I was like, "did you just accuse me of being controlling? Because if anything, I have given you so many concessions that no normal person would have put up with."

Yeah.

I was like, "I, if anything, I was too lenient about things that probably Angel or John would be like, 'why did you put up with that?' kind of thing. Like and you have the audacity to call me controlling because I felt uncomfortable over, like, over Dora and these friends of yours because I know about how you talked about me to them? Yeah. You witnessed how mad I was at that accusation. And that's one of the very last conversations we had, right? And at that point, I was like, "wow, until now, we've been together for— this has been going on for many months. And until now, you still don't get it. And we are broken up now." And I was like, "I give up. I give up explaining this." I'm like, "you don't understand what I feel. You don't understand, like, that it's your responsibility, as my partner, to protect my feelings, to protect me. Because I have been protecting you this whole time." Like, I was so offended and I was so heartbroken and I was so hurt and that stark realization of, "wow, even until now, you still don't get it" kinda thing.

Yeah.

And I am tired of explaining it. And, do you know, Ellie, when I stopped talking to you for those couple of days in that ravine? And this is one thing that was very loud in my brain, like, two days after I arrived here that was, like, really bad for me mentally that I literally had to tell Auntie Khlarisse this because I was like, "this has been loud in my brain all day." Like, Sven was mad because he was like, "it sounds like you still want me to be there for you. And after everything you put me through, like, I grieved you. I literally was just waiting for bad news. I expected that I was gonna lose you, and it sounds like you expect me to be here for you when I'm still mad about what you did in recording those conversations." And he literally told me, he said, "and this was what I was trying to prevent. And the whole time, I kept telling you to, like, get help or, like, I was trying to convince you to see a therapist or do something for yourself. Like, you never listened to me. Like, this was what I was trying to prevent. And I had messaged Ellie, like, when I broke up with you, I had messaged Ellie to look out for you because I just knew." These are his words, right? He said, "I reached out to Ellie to look out for you because I just knew that you were gonna pull some shit like this."

Right.

The anvil that dropped on me and the righteous indignation that the teenager that's chained to the corner immediately, like, wanted to bring down hellfire. I'm like, "did you just call it shit like this?" I am the one that's in the depths of this mental, like, ravine struggling with my mental health right now. Like, I am the one actively being tortured by my own mind. I am the one struggling, and you invalidate that by calling it, "I'm pulling some shit like this?"

Yeah. That one…

"I knew that you were gonna pull shit like this"? I'm like, did you really just—? And to his credit, he did feel bad, like, later. Like, he sent me a voice message. He said, "I may have been too harsh, and I was wrong to say to like, talk to you that way." And do you know when I responded to him?

Oh, again, this is just—

Do you know how I responded to him, Ellie, when I got that voice message?

Go on.

And this wasn't even an attempt to be pointed. It was very natural. It was just what I felt at that moment, and it was it was literally just, like, the obvious answer to me. It's just, "this is how I feel, so this is how I'm responding." Like, I wasn't trying to make a point or anything. But the more that I remembered it, the more that I realized "that's just wrong." Because when he said that, when he apologized for it, he was like, "I was too harsh. I shouldn't have talked to you this way. I'm sorry. I'm still feeling very angry, and still feeling very hurt." My response was, "that's okay. I'm used to it." And, like, I wasn't trying to be— like, this was a very genuine sentiment of, "it's okay; I'm used to it." But every time I remember that, I'm like, "no. That's wrong. That's wrong that you're used to that. That's wrong that you could say that. That's wrong that you feel that."

Yeah. That… Yeah. So there's still a part of you, like a single part of you that's fighting that even when, like, everything else had stopped fighting.

Yeah. And to be honest, Ellie, it's like… I wanted to end my life because part of me was so tired—

I know.

—of like—

I know.

—like I told you, I know that I'm capable of, like, recovering from this. I know that I'm capable of moving on. I know that I'm capable of climbing back up. I just… I don't want it anymore. I'm tired. I don't see the point. He was my reason for, like, holding on. But also, a part of me did not wanna face this, like, did not wanna look in the eye how horrible he actually was. Like, I wanted the narrative to be, okay, we both tried. We failed. It didn't work out. Like, it's no one's fault. Like, this is the end. Like, end of story. Like, no one blame him. Like, I just wanted to protect him. I wanted to protect the narrative, and I even told Auntie Khlarisse I wanted it to be my fault. Like, I didn't want it to be his fault. And I felt like if I went through this process, I would have to face the fact that there was a lot of things wrong on his end that I wanted to take for myself.

Yeah.

And it's so unfair because I was like, part of that is, I was like, "gosh, I just can't stop trying to protect you." Hold on. I need a tissue.

Go for it. Go for it.

I recognize and I realize the very strong instincts in me to protect this person, and I also hear that teenager chained to the corner screaming at me, "he's never even protected you. Why are you doing this for him?"

Yeah. It's because you have—

And so when I got here, that's literally… I just can't stop feeling betrayed. Because the only reason I gave you so many concessions and grace and, like, I put up with so much shit is because I trusted you to become the person I knew you were capable of being, to step up, to— because I heard you when you said you wanted to change, and I was willing to wait for that as long as possible. And what did I get? You left me. You abandoned me.

Yeah.

To a thing that I tried to be understanding over.

Yeah.

And then then you get mad one second and you're just like, "fuck it. I can't do this. Bye." I felt so betrayed.

Yeah. But it wasn't just one time.

I wanted you to be the person that I believed in. And I thought, and I believed that you were capable of it, and you told me that you wanted to be, and I wanted to give you as much as I— even though it was killing me that I wasn't being treated the way I deserved, like, I literally gritted my teeth, and I'm, like, "hold it together." And I kept bringing up to you that, like, "this is not okay. I need to be better treated than this." And, like, all you kept saying is that "I need time.
It's gonna take time. It's gonna take time." And I kept saying that "what am I supposed to hold on to in the meantime? Because in the meantime, this is damaging me." And I'm realizing right now, like, back in Amsterdam, before I found that out, before we had that argument, I was literally telling him that I am so anxious about what I need to get— I need to get my life in order. I need to enroll in a class. I need to, like, finally decide where my path is going to go, and I need to, like, snap into action, right? I was like, "I spent the last six months since I got back from Australia, like, basically, like, just doing work and not actually, like, building or walking or like walking towards something," right? And I was like, "and I'm very anxious about that, and I actually need to make some big moves for, like, the future of my life."

Yeah.

And I realized that from January until now that this man has drained so much of my energy that I have not been able— I have literally not been capable of doing much else because there was no space. There was no space in my mental load. There was no space in my emotional, physical. Like, this relationship has drained so much of me, and I let it because I trusted you.

Yeah. You were investing. You were investing in it and, yeah. Yeah, you were giving your all because that's what you do. You give your all. You give your all.

Because all I could do is literally try to handle myself and how unsafe I felt on how unfair I felt, like, the way I was being treated. Like, I was trying to handle that myself because all you kept telling me is that you needed time, and I wanted to give you the time. So I was like, "okay, until you can step into the person that I believe you're capable of being, I have to deal with it myself. Because I literally keep asking you, I was like, what do I have to hold on in the meantime? And you're not capable of giving me that. And then when I am struggling mentally because I have so much shit on my plate and I have to handle all this and myself and how unsafe I feel in this relationship, because I have to handle that myself, and then I have no space for anything else, and I have so many mental struggles, like, you can't even support me. You get annoyed that I wake you up because I'm struggling, and I need someone to just sit with me. Like the amount of times that I have sat with you during your spirals, during your breakdowns, during your struggles, your weaknesses, that I have prioritized you, and I've been so willing to, like, be gentle, walk you through it, like, try to be there for you. I have always prioritized you, and you have not prioritized me, and you have made me feel bad for trying to lean on you." I just— I don't— I feel so betrayed.

Yeah. I mean, everything you laid out today. Like what do you do? Like, that's an entirely logical, reasonable, emotional reaction because you have been betrayed. Like, I'm not I'm not saying that he did it maliciously or anything like that. I mean, I'm not saying— or what am I saying? I'm saying that he acted—

Auntie Khlarisse just says that he just needs to grow up, and he needs to have, like, a lot more life experiences, and he's just not ready for a relationship. And Jen said the same thing, where she's like, "the thing is that Sven really thinks he's ready for a relationship." And I even said, "yeah, he wishes he was, but clearly, he's not ready for a relationship" because there have been so many times in that relationship to where I kept telling him, like, "Sven, I am not leading this. I did that with Mark. I'm not carrying anything. Like, you need to lead this." So when the last time we fought before we broke up, I was like, "where do we go from here? You need to take the lead." And he didn't even understand that question. I unpacked this with Auntie Khlarisse. He literally, to me, it felt like he perverted it. And Auntie Khlarisse said, it's like, "it's just men. He didn't connect, like, what you were asking for him for. You needed reassurance. You needed support. You needed a pillar to lean on." And I even said very early in the relationship, I was like, "I'm very careful about how much I lean on you because, like, you test the branches if they're going to break." And that's what it felt like. Like I couldn't lean on you because you were too weak for it, and I kept waiting for you to gather strength or to become a pillar of support, and you never were. And I kept asking you to lead, and you could never step up to the plate. Like, step into the man that I needed you to be.

Yeah.

That be would able to meet my needs because that was a recurring thing. I was like, "I can't deal with being treated like this. I actually need space to be able to also struggle and to be supported through that struggles. I need to not be made to feel guilty if I'm struggling. And I need that space, and, like, I need that support, and I need to have my needs met." And that's the part that was so frustrating is because he always made it sound like he needed time.

Yeah.

And I was like, "then what are we gonna do with the now? Because right now, my needs are not being met, and I can't— They're needs. They're not wants. I can't—" I said that. I said that verbally to him multiple times. I'm like, "Sven, their needs. They're not wants. They're needs." I was like—

Yeah. It's like, how long can you keep holding your breath for?

And then at the end, he's the one who walked out on me, right? And I'm like, every single thing that I put up with, every single concession and grace I've given you, and you abandon me. Like, of course, I feel betrayed.

Of course you do.

Anyway, that's my truth.

laughs I'm sorry. You deserve so much better. I wish I could give you a better one.

Literally, I was reeling the whole time. Like, ever since I got here, even though Auntie Khlarisse and I had so many, like, insightful and, like, useful and valuable conversations and unpacking and just, like, talking and, like, exploring and processing, like, that's been the reoccurring theme. I just kept saying, "I just feel so betrayed. I just feel betrayed." And Auntie Khlarisse was very understanding, like, "of course you feel betrayed because he couldn't be the person that you thought that he was."

Yeah. And that…yeah. You didn't… He either wasn't able to or he didn't—

Just quit on me. And I trusted when he said that "I will always choose you. I will never want to stop trying." And then you go and quit on me. And then when I ask you, "so do you wanna stop trying?" Because I had always told him that "the door is always open. You can always go. I will never hold you here against your will. I'm not gonna beg you to stay if you don't want to. Like, I don't want someone to stay if they don't actually want to. Like I want to be chosen. I want you to be sure about us. But, like, basically, you chose to quit, and you said, you went, okay, I don't wanna try anymore." Oh, of course I feel betrayed. I trusted you. That's it. That's why I'm betrayed because I trusted you.

I mean, like, there were promises made and then promises broken, but then, of course, like—

Why? Because I recorded conversations because it always felt like whenever you told me shit that you were leaving things out, or lying to me, or downplaying things like you downplayed July? And I wanted to know what the actual truth was? Like, compared to the amount of shit that I put up with, right? I was like, "and that's enough for you to just go, like, nope, bye," and abandon me?

Yeah. And not taking even a moment to "oh, okay. Well, why did she feel the need to do that?"

Because I've never felt safe, and I told him that.

Yes, I wasn't asking that. I was saying he didn't ask himself that.

No, I know. I know. I know. Yes, I know. But, like, I'm answering it. I'm like, because he never like— and that's what's also annoying is because I outright verbalized it. I've said that out loud to him multiple times that I didn't feel safe within the relationship. He couldn't create that safety for me because he is very passive, and he cannot, like you said, things happen to him, and he can't just step up. That's all I asked of you is step up. I was counting on you to. I was waiting on you to, and I kept flagging with you the things that bothered me, and you never did anything about it…aside from unpacking it in therapy, and EMDR, and the fact that he hasn't had a therapist in months, and…this is the part of me again that's, like, making excuses for him, but also, like…and then the teenager is screaming at me again to stop making excuses.

Yeah.

So I'm like, I know. Like, on a base level, I'm like, I know that he tried his best. That maybe that's just literally the limit of his capabilities. But you still let me down. Like, don't look away from the fact that you let me down.

Yeah. Two things can be 100% true at the same time and, like, him trying his best can be true, and him betraying you and letting you down can also be true. Like, I hate the fact that two things can be true at the same time because it would be much simpler if there was just one thing that was true. But I think—

Hold on, Ellie. I'm sorry, hold on. Sorry, I just— anyway, what were we talking about? You were talking about two things being true at the…?

Yeah.

It's just— I don't know.

I mean, but I think it's possible that he was trying his best, and it's possible that he just, yeah, it's possible that he still betrayed you even though he was trying his best, but that doesn't mean you have to, like, make excuses for him.

Yeah. Exactly. That's what I told— I said, "I'm done making excuses. I just—" I was like, "I have had to contain myself for so long out of this consideration and protection that I feel towards you, but it is not fair to myself if I also don't just outright acknowledge the fact that that part of me that feels very betrayed, that feels very hurt, that feels very "how dare you", that feels very…yeah, that just…

Unseen. Like, everything that you—

That feels like everything that I feared has come to fruition.

But also, like, what I was gonna say is, like, you know what you did, what you put into the relationship, how you defended his friends, how you kept holding on. And it's like that isn't seen
by him, and there's, like, a betrayal in that. Like, "you don't even know. You don't even know, like, what I did for you."

It's a very strong sense of injustice.

Yeah.

Like, I was like, "this was so unfair. This was so unfair. Everything that I gave you that you couldn't return, that you couldn't have the decency to do the same for me," like…

Are you lying on the floor, Kyla?

I am.

Oh.

I am in a spare bedroom down in the basement.

Okay.

Because, like, everyone's bedrooms is in the second floor. So I've come down to the basement and closed all the doors so I don't wake anyone up because it is 3AM over here.

I, A, I should let you, like, try and, like, calm down. B, I should let you try and sleep.

No, I don't, right now, I don't feel sleepy in the slightest.

Especially because, like, earlier today, Ellie, Sven messaged me. Because remember when I said that I wanted to end that relationship in love and honesty? And I did that. In my last conversation with him, I was like, okay, like, this is goodbye. Like, we are gonna honor the love that we had, and that was after we broke up. And he messaged me today because he was like, "I heard you're talking shit about me", basically. It was like, "whatever happened to that ending it with love and honesty" kind of thing? And I knew. I knew when he messaged me, I knew that I shouldn't respond because I am trying to do the work of actually fully processing and healing from this because, like, you failed to protect me. Now I have to pick up the pieces and try to piece it back together. Now, like, I have to actually, like, get over this, like, and heal myself because it's not like I can rely on you to be around anymore. So I'm forced to go through this process, and I don't wanna do any shortcuts, right? I wanna do it right. I wanna actually, like, go through this process and actually heal and actually move on.

And part of that is feeling your feelings.

Yeah. So… and he… let me just send the screenshots. Let me just send this to you.

Part of me knew that the best move here would be to not respond. Because I knew that if I responded, then I would just be roped into this whole, like, back and forth blame game, and it's like a cycle that I'm trying to break out of, and I'm trying to, like I'm trying to actually move on. I'm trying to actually do the work here. I'm trying to actually heal. So when he messaged this, like, I was so mad because as soon as I read it, like, the part of me that has been so indignantly angry knew exactly what it wanted to say. And there's a majority part of me that's unfortunately weaker than the anger, was already saying while I was typing, "this is a bad idea. You shouldn't respond at all. The right move here is to not respond," but I couldn't help myself, and I just responded. And that whole conversation, like, set off— I felt so dysregulated. Like, I started feeling, like, negative feelings again. I felt like I knew I'm just so exhausted. I don't wanna have to do this. I just wanna die. Like, I literally just called my Auntie Khlarisse who was out, like, dropping her kids off at the CPR class. I'm like, "I feel so dysregulated because I ended up like— I've been so disciplined for the last two weeks that I've been here about not reaching out and not contacting because I know that it's best for us to be no contact. It's healthy for us to be no contact right now." I've been so disciplined. Even during— I was so paranoid about streams, by the way, with Dora. Like, even when he wasn't in the stream, like, I would still feel the need to be there. Girl, ever since we broke up, I haven't felt the need to sit through a stream. Like, I feel that much lighter. Like, I haven't had to watch any streams entirely. Like, I have been that good about avoiding, like, unhealthy behaviors, trying to reach out, trying to, like, avoid getting dragged back into this toxic cycle. And I just felt so guilty immediately when I received this because I was typing, I knew it was wrong, and I sent it anyway. And I ended up, like, briefly getting dragged back into it until I was like, "you know what? At the last message," I was like, "he said goodbye. Like, anything after this, I'm gonna let him have the last word. Like, part of me feels very indignant and, like, feels like I have to defend myself from that last message, like, that I have to explain myself, but I am gonna let it go. Like, I don't need the last word. I just need to stop responding" kind of thing. And then I called Auntie Khlarisse, and I was like, "help me. I'm dysregulated. I messed up. I responded. Here's the conversation. And she was really helpful at talking me through it as well." But I don't know. Can you did you read through all of it?

I'm still reading. But, I mean, I'm terrible at being able to read and listen at the same time.

So I'm gonna give you time to read. Where are you? Which part are you at?

"Silence you? After all I hear after your "I'm fine" call is that you talk shit about me?" That's where I am at. But, yeah, I'm terrible at reading and listening at the same time, sorry.

No. It's okay. Just keep reading.

Yeah. But I just want to say that I am so proud of you. I just want to say that. Like, because, like, Kyla from a month ago—

Girl, no. Don't. Save your comments until after you've read all of it. laughs

I don't think I'm gonna change my mind. I think I'm still gonna be proud of you. But okay. Alright. I'm reading. Okay. Reading.

And I am so confused about that second to the last, like, sentence. It's like, "choice is still yours." I'm like, "what choice? You already made the choice. I don't know what choice you're even talking about at this point." And, you know, this whole conversation reminded me, because I remember talking to you about like, I'm like, "I can just imagine what sort of shit he's talking about me right now." And you're like, "oh, I'm sure he's not talking shit about you." And I'm like, "he's talked shit about— because he has complained to me about his exes." And he has talked about, and he has blamed it on Niels and Jamilla for starting these wrong, like, nicknames. Because he literally told me that Niels and Jamilla calls Tris, like, Tris—

Trash.

Tris trash, yeah. And, like, Eefje, like something about a wet dog in Dutch, like, that if they just added two words, it would basically mean "she's a wet dog" kinda thing. Like, they had these nicknames for them. And it bothered me. And I'm like, "why…that's rude. And why are you, like, allowing that, and why are you participating in that?" And he was like, "no, but they came up with it. I don't know why. Like, they're so toxic. They came up with it." And he was like— and this was a conversation— this was a fight during Mexico where I was fighting with him, and I said, like, literally, like, "I am so angry at you, but I am keeping it in because I know that if I allowed myself to be angry with you, it would be break-up-level worthy." And I also told him, like, "you were so mad at Tris for making a joke during the time that you were suicidal, making a joke that didn't land well with you," and he said that, "but you don't get it. Her only excuse was that she was drunk." I'm like, "Sven, do you not realize that you have done worse to me, and I have understood you because I love you? And, like, the way that you're treating these people that you have claimed to love?" I was like, "you've done worse to me." And even now, all the more. I was like, "you think that Tris, like, made this, like, insensitive comment because she was drunk? You made an insensitive comment to me fully sober. You literally called it 'I knew you were gonna pull shit like this.' My suicidal struggle. 'I knew you were gonna pull shit like this'." Like, even now, like, in hindsight, like, I can outright say, like, that even back then, I said, "you've done worse to me, and I have always, like, forgiven you because I love you. And the way that you're speaking about your exes right now, and you're saying it's because, like, 'you don't get it because she made a joke while she was drunk, and her only excuse is that she was drunk.' Well, guess what, bitch, What's your excuse to me right now? What's your excuse?"