Hi, love.
Hi!
You're done folding the laundry?
*nods*
Okay.
Just a second, love.
Okay. Ow. Ow. Oh, hold up. Subtitles.
You okay?
Are you okay?
I am, more or less.
"More or less" is a phrase we use when there's something bothering us, but it's manageable so far.
What's up?
*raises stream volume* I'm okay.
Are you sure?
Hair.
What's on your mind, love?
The above question is one we used to use to check in with each other and an invitation when we feel we want to or are able to hold space.
Ugh. I guess I just feel guilty because I feel responsible.
For me not speaking to Niels and Jamilla much?
Mm-hmm.
You're not. There was a lot of strain.
How come?
No, there was a lot of strain in that friendship before. That all happened and we didn't really talk much already.
Yeah, you do.
We would be lucky to get one gaming session a month in and that would be the only time that I would basically talk to the both of them. And now Niels has changed jobs so he's busy. I mean we got to know each other when they were still studying and that also changed. So, in a way, life has happened as well, and that hasn't really helped staying in touch either. So no, please don't feel guilty because there's a lot of reasons why we talk less. But when I was combating demons just now...
Mm-hmm?
I was actually thinking about sending Niels a message asking if he would feel up for a few games tonight.
Hmm. Do you miss them, love? Do you want to?
I do, yeah. I kind of feel like— I don't know. Just— I don't think I played games in, like, weeks now. So yeah, it might actually be a good idea, too.
Mm-hmm. It hurts.
What's wrong?
Hangnail, but like— I'll have to go downstairs to grab my— It's in the car. My nail cutter.
Mm. Okay, I just sent Niels a message. And I know it's— that hangnail is going to annoy you until you get to your car. What is it?
When was the last time you chatted with Dora? Discord, WhatsApp?
I believe that was Friday morning when she suddenly texted me. Thursday evening.
Mm-hmm.
But I didn't see it until Friday morning.
About what?
She said that she misses me and that she was hoping to get games in soon again.
Mm-hmm.
And I said, well, first of all, my work is ramping up until the at the end of the year, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to play much, and I don't even really feel like gaming much. So, yeah.
You said first of all, so what's the second of all?
Uh, the fact that I don't feel like gaming, too, as much.
Says the person who said, "I haven't played in a while. Let me text Niels to see if he wants to play." *laughs*
Not my brain already picking up on the inconsistencies of the stories.
Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm not going to tell her that you requested me not to join stream anymore because that would basically restart all rant that she had the end of July. So, yeah.
Rant? What do you mean?
I was so confused because he never told me there was a rant. All he told me prior to this was "she gave me bad advice and made me spiral" basically.
When she basically, um, during that conversation about trust, that whole spiral, so yeah.
Huh?
So yeah, I'm not going to say that you requested me not to join stream—
Help me; I'm kind of lost.
What about it made you feel lost, love?
Because, well, when you talked, you didn't really tell me details about that conversation. I mean, when you talked about it before, you just talked about, "oh, yeah, she was talking about her experience. Everyone was talking about their experience." And now you're framing it as a rant, so I'm confused.
I almost feel bad for past me here. I can already tell by this point that things didn't make sense in my head from all that he told me since July and he was clearly trying to hide something. And considering the details of that conversation that I find out only a few weeks after this conversation (linked here), no wonder he wanted to hide it.
Because when I was spiraling over trust, um, she went on to say some things about you that I don't agree with. I didn't agree with it back then; I don't agree with it now.
Things about me? What do you mean?
The things that she had heard.
From where?
From before that time.
I know, but from who? Like, who told her these things?
*incredulous because I don't even know this person so why does she think she knows me?*
Well, I told her a couple of things, of course, back then, but she had this opinion where she was like, "Yeah, no, that's toxic."
Okay, so what exactly did you say then?
Love, that was months ago. I have no clue what I said anymore.
okay, so you remember saying things, just not what you said?
All I do remember, is that even joining calls for over like days or weeks, she considered that toxic.
I'm sorry, what's—? Okay, so, you're like, "I don't even remember what I told her," but you're saying like, "oh yeah, she said things about things she heard." And I'm like, "so, what did she hear? What was the opinion? Where did that come from?"
okay, so my reaction then is not different from my reaction now. i don't give past Kyla enough credit. she was very much in tune with her emotions and she calls it out immediately what feels off to her in the moment...why didn't I listen to my own instincts again?
And like I said, even the most basic things, she felt like were toxic. Just our continuous calls, that was toxic to her already. And now I don't specifically remember everything that she knew about us back then. I don't.
So what do you remember?
I just told you.
That's one factor, Sven, and it's kind of—
And I'm telling you I don't remember the other factors.
Well, yeah, but you can't say— oh, yeah, but you can't put a severity on it if it's only one thing you remember. Like, you can't say that, "oh yeah, she was ranting" if you only remember one thing. Why would you consider it a rant?
PAST KYLA HOW ARE YOU THIS SMART? clearly you can verbalize the source of your discomfort pretty well and pinpoint exactly what and where feels off. ALSO WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN TO YOURSELF? oh. yeah. i was too invested in the emotional side of the relationship. seriously need to give myself grace here.
Because I do remember how that whole conversation felt.
Just like, "Oh, yeah, but she had opinions on you." I'm like, how can you say 'opinions' if you only remember one thing? It's—
starting to also see why my gpa is 4.0. i notice inconsistencies in statements so easily.
Because, Kyla, she doesn't form her opinion just on the continuous calls alone. Again, I don't really remember the other factors that she brought up, but just for continuous calls, she's not going to call you toxic.
Yeah, so, what formed that opinion? Is what I want to know.
Yeah, I really would like to answer that, but I have no clue anymore, love.
Did you just roll your eyes at me?
No, I didn't. (lieeeees) But I did tell you multiple times now already that I don't remember the other factors.
based on my face alone here, i can already tell that that made absolutely no sense to me but that i was trying to reconcile and accept that explanation anyway.
But yeah, I do remember that whole conversation being a rant because she went on and on about it.
You were on text.
Text and voice at first, remember?
Uh-huh. But you were on text.
Voice first, text after.
Mm-hmm. Text is easy to look up.
Most of that stuff was said over voice. I do remember that.
yeeeeeah, past kyla, i know you're in love with this person and want to believe in him, but you really do deserve someone who stands up for you in rooms you're not a part of, not go along with the conversation and then blame the other person after.
Last messages was from August 15th because she changed her number. Let me see if I can still find the conversation with her on her old phone number. I don't have that conversation anymore. I hoped I still had it, but I don't. I had hoped that I would still have that conversation, but I don't. I'm sorry.
Conversations don't just disappear, love.
No, but I do regularly clean up the conversations that I have, love.
Mm-hmm.
What is it?
[unintelligible]
The 'mm-hmm' sounded very passive-aggressive.
As just a couple of things you said that just strike me as, "oh, well, that's very convenient."
Such as?
No, it just sounds convenient. I'm like, "well, okay, that's convenient."
You said a couple of things. So, what are the couple of things?
I forget exactly, but I feel like I said it both times. When you said something, it was like, "convenient, okay."
Why would that be convenient?
Because, I don't know, when I ask you a question, you just don't have the answer anymore. And I'm like, "well, that's convenient." And you're like, "oh yeah, I don't have it anymore cause I deleted it cause I like to clean conversations." I'm like, "for someone who has a terrible memory, you sure like to enable it? I don't know."
my brain hates inconsistencies.
Sure, it's about enabling.
Hmm?
Sure, it is about enabling.
What do you mean?
As if I would want to go over that conversation again. Because early of August, actually when I was waiting for the airplane, I cleaned up a lot of conversations when I was going home from Budapest. And later, I don't know, you already know that I often do a lot of cleaning whenever I feel bad or down or whatever.
I don't. I hyper-analyze everything until it makes sense because my brain hates things that don't make sense.
Because just cleaning up helps me de-stress. But okay, sure, it's enabling my own bad memory.
It's just awfully convenient for you to be like, "Yeah, I don't remember anymore." Like "I can totally make those comments, but it's not like I remember what brought them about anymore." Like that's very helpful, useful.
So what would you have preferred then, for me to say nothing?
No, I would have preferred for you to actually know what you were talking about.
Yeah, well, I'm sorry but that is very unlikely to happen now. Because first of all, I don't remember. Second of all, I don't have the messages anymore, so I can't go back over that. Did I delete them because I thought it would be convenient at a later point in time? No, definitely not. Dora's opinion of you—
Was borne by things you told her about me. So it's just like—
Thank you for letting me finish.
—how do you talk about me then? Go ahead.
No, you already pre-empted me. So what is now the point of me telling whatever I was wanting to say?
Because—
You already have the narrative in your head, Kyla.
Okay, then don't.
Because apparently, Dora formed her opinion of you based on very basic stuff I told her about you.
*turns volume down because she's already starting to recognize the warning signs and is starting to feel unsafe*
I'm noticing this is the point where I stop folding and pick up my phone. This is a familiar coping mechanism of mine. When I feel unsafe, I feel the need to dissociate so I can stay present. I can see myself dissociating because of the calm mask that starts to take over my face at this point. I've long learned that you can't run away from whatever danger is being posed. You have to find a way to survive it until it passes so that it passes. Otherwise, it will just come back around again, possibly worse. Basically a 'you have to take it or it will just come back' mentality. I think it's a childhood thing. (Have been unpacking a lot of childhood with my Aunt recently.) When someone explodes at me, avoiding it doesn't get rid of it. It just postpones it. So I've learned to sort of stay and take it so that it's over with. Being on my phone keeps a portion of my brain busy enough that it doesn't start freaking out about feeling unsafe. Really it's an unhealthy coping mechanism.
Most of which you actually have heard, because that was during streams. And then I stopped sharing.
I don't watch all your streams. I told you I don't even like being there.
And thank you for interrupting again.
Go ahead. I'll shut up.
Most of which was just very basic stuff. It was just stuff like, "Oh yeah, she works at a doggy daycare." When you were still living in Australia, I said like, "Oh, yeah, she's studying." Just basic stuff. And yeah, I did share that we have these phone calls. I only share the basic stuff, but somehow, she formed her opinion on that basic stuff. I'm not even sure how she got to the whole point of calling you toxic or whatsoever. Do I want to reopen that conversation? Not really. I'm not even sure how to reopen that conversation. Don't feel like I am up for that. Over.
annnnnd here i immediately pick up on being given some space again so i take a moment to process everything that was said. and then i explain why that didn't make sense to my brain at all.
I am not going to form opinions on anyone my friends know based on basic conversation like 'this is what they do for work'. It's either the vibes I'm getting from what they said or how they said it. So that's why I'm like, "if this is your friends' opinions of me, then how exactly do you talk about me?" Cause it just means, I don't know, you gave them those vibes. At least that's how I understand it.
this is me pointing out that being unsafe and unprotected could only have come from him as a source, because it sounds more like he's attacking me more than protecting me when i'm not in the room.
I can't pull up the stream recordings or whatever they're called because those are just gone.
And I'm pretty sure that my friends only would make judgment calls on people I know that they don't know based on how I talk about them or the vibes they get from when I talk about them. So that's why I'm like, "Okay, so they're not pulling this out of nowhere. They're getting it from somewhere. Otherwise, why would they think that?
I'm not sure if I can answer that question, love.
Then maybe it's just toxic.
What is?
Maybe they're right. Maybe they're onto something. Maybe they just know you well and it's actually toxic.
Yeah, at times, Dora is or can be very toxic, that is true.
At times what?
At times, Dora can be very toxic, that is true.
Why are you talking about Dora? I'm talking about— That's not what I was talking about.
Then what are you talking about?
No, because you said that she said that, "oh, no, that's toxic." So, maybe it just is toxic.
What is toxic?
I don't know, this? Me? Us? Together.
No, how is that toxic? What exactly about us is toxic? What exactly about you is toxic?
Well, that— whatever she said. Well, that was what I was asking. That's what I was trying to figure out. I was like, "what exactly was behind this conclusion?" Like "what led up to this?" Because like I said, you don't just pull that out of nowhere. It comes from somewhere, so... so what are they seeing that I'm not aware of? Where did this come from? How did you say things? How did you talk about me? What feelings drove the way you talked about me that they were able to pick up on?
Kyla, I never— just like I said before, the only times that I talked about you with Dora was usually during streams.
And, clearly, it's enough to pick up on a vibe. So exactly what were you putting down?
Can I finish please? I take a, not even half a second for a break to catch my breath, and it's interrupting again. Can we please not do that?
Yeah, maybe that's toxic.
All the times that I actually talked about you to Dora was on those streams and it was never a bad thing. The thing that I told her about the continuous calls that was not even on stream, that was over WhatsApp, I believe. Or during the Discord call, but not on stream. Never on stream. Because the whole world doesn't need to know that we are on continuous calls. I wish I knew the exact things that were said made her form that opinion of you. I do.
You—
But yes, maybe— Go ahead.
"But yes, maybe" what?
No, you were going to interrupt. So, go ahead.
No. "Yes, maybe" what? I stopped.
I don't even know what I was trying to say anymore. Currently going over messages I sent in Twitch chat back in March.
You said, "I wish I knew what thoughts led up to that conclusion" or "I wish I understood why she thought this way." But that— you do know. You did know. Because you were there for that conversation. You were the one who gave the information. You listened to the quote, unquote, "rant" and you did even agree to a certain point. You're like, "Oh, I never agreed with anything she said back then" or "I didn't agree with it now. I didn't agree with it back then." I'm like, "Yeah, you did, because you specifically phrased it in that way to Gerson and Sami when you said, "Oh, yeah, and she's toxic." So how else would you use that word if you didn't agree? You said, "Oh yeah, she helped me to see that she was toxic." So clearly, you agreed to a certain extent. Clearly, you understood that train of thought. Clearly, you knew what got there. Well, you did know, but apparently now you don't anymore. And that's very convenient.
chat, do you really want to be with a man who speaks bad about you behind your back? because clearly, past kyla did not like the idea of that in the slightest. and she didn't even know at this point how bad it actually was. she could sense it, obviously, but she did not know the full extent. she will find that out two weeks from now.
Again, sure, if you want to say it's convenient, that's— You're free to do that. Because again, I wish— I truly wish I knew exact details so I can actually go over that and talk you through that.
fam, it's right there in your messages. future kyla (from this point) literally finds it in 3 seconds from setting out to find it and gets all the more pissed off because she remembers everything you said here.
Like I said, you did know. You did agree. It's not a "I have no idea why she thought this way." It's a "oh, I actually can see why she thought this way. And I actually kind of agree with it." How else would the end of July happen?
So, what do you want me to do now, Kyla?
I don't know, put action to your words, maybe?
What can you do?
Because I—
That's the thing.
Well, you are asking me to list out all the details that basically made Dora form her opinion of you.
me literally shaking my head while he's talking because that's not what i was asking at all. i wasn't worried about what she thought; i was worried about what he was saying about me whenever my back is turned. i felt very unprotected.
But I can't magically grasp a conversation that isn't there anymore out of thin air.
I'm not asking you to—
I am—
Go ahead.
I am trying to go over the messages that I sent on Twitch chat. So far, I have found "okay, someone might have infected me with Taylor Swifts" and, uhm, "she had me go through all the albums and demanded live reactions." That is one. Uhm, "might get off after stream because someone's waiting for me to be done gaming." So yeah, I'm not sure what I can or cannot do. I'm not sure what you now expect from me because I can't magically have those um those details that are now missing appear again.
I expected you to know your own thoughts and your own mind, not a convenient, "I don't know what I was thinking" excuse after you tell me you misrepresented me. So how do I trust you if it feels like you stab me in the back whenever it's turned?
Like I said, I'm not expecting you to list out all the reasons why she might have thought that way. I'm expecting you to actually know. Because again, I said, you were part of the conversation and you agreed with it. How can you agree with it and not understand it? Because you agreed with it.
And for that, I need to know the details of that conversation because I don't necessarily remember— No, not even necessarily. I don't remember all the details of that specific conversation anymore. And honestly, it was a conversation that I'd rather forget because it sparked quite some issues.
That doesn't help me because—
I'm not saying it should help you. I'm saying that I know it isn't helpful and that it is very much standing in the way right now.
yeeeeeah, sorry, kyla, you need someone steady who can reassure you and not just shrug and say, "i don't know" when you're asking for an explanation. reliving this months in the future is making me feel so "ugh, girl, i am so sorry you're going through this." i can already see from her body language that she is feeling very much like she is at the edge of a cliff with nothing to hold on to and no steady ground beneath her feet and she's trying so hard to get this man to point a bridge out to her or build one or something because all the excuses he's giving her makes her feel like she could easily just slip and fall if she stepped wrong.
You didn't let me finish.
Go ahead.
I said that doesn't help me because all I'm getting from this conversation is, if your friends are able to pick up on something that you're putting down, and you're saying you don't even know what you put down, but clearly they pick up enough to form an opinion, and you're very much capable of agreeing with that opinion, clearly, you can and have thought or felt very negatively about me, but all I'm getting from you is 'I don't know's. So that's not really helpful.
SAKJDHLAJKSDHKLSAJHDLKAHDSA MY BIGGEST EMPATHY TO THE VOICE CRACKS AT THIS POINT BECAUSE I CAN FEEL THAT HURT AND LACK OF SAFETY FROM OVER 6 MONTHS IN THE FUTURE. I REMEMBER HOW SHE WAS FEELING. OH MY GOSH I JUST WANT TO HUG HER NOW.
Because if you can and have felt or talked very negatively about me, then like, what's stopping that from happening again?
guys, she's trying so hard to explain her feelings. i really want to reach through the screen to hug her aoshdpioahfdawhefupihesioufhaeoiudhawlda.
And that is what I'm trying to figure out, Kyla, I don't think I ever—
Why are you getting frustrated with me?
oh no. she just admitted a fear and is feeling very vulnerable to the point that her phone coping is clearly not working anymore because her breathing looks a little shaky now. this removed from it, i can see her starting to get dysregulated. this girl just needs a sense of safety right now, not defense.
I'm not getting frustrated with you but I'm trying to tell you—
But you are raising your voice.
I'm not— this is not me raising my voice, Kyla. This is me changing tone.
I said that before and you disagree. And now I'm calling that out, and you're disagreeing, and that—
okay, she is struggling to self-regulate. my girl is clearly flailing in mid-air right now. she doesn't need your explanations. she needs a sense of safety.
I'm trying to figure out the things that I said, but I don't remember saying anything negative about you. What I do remember—
*about to say something but stops herself* Go ahead.
What I do remember is the very first time I met Dora in person, we had a late-night conversation, and that was when the whole situation with my ex was going down. And I remember her going absolutely mad even though she didn't know anything about my ex. Back when I had this this short-lived thing going on with Tris, it was the exact same thing. To the point where I was like, "why the fuck is she so protective over me?" And I don't get it.
What was the exact same thing?
Her being very protective, going mad over something that she just made up in her head because she didn't even know the situation. And that is why I'm now trying to figure out what kind of things did I say about you? I'm currently in June, mid-June, and so far, it's just about the Taylor Swift album, the time that you showed up in chat, and I said "get food," saying I would get off the games because you were waiting, and I didn't even know you or— I just said "someone is waiting for me to stop gaming." And now I just found "still trying for that 555:55:55 with K," never even mentioning your name. I'm trying to figure out what the things were that were said.
And I'm just trying to figure out how that opinion could be formed by not just one, love, three friends. You're the common denominator there. It's like you said, things don't just come out of nowhere.
Kyla, you also know the whole thing that I had with Jamilla. That fight. Where she was just like, "yeah, just burn bridges." She immediately jumped into conclusions without even knowing the full story, not even knowing part of it. But sure, I am the common denominator here. And I have no clue anymore what was being said because now I'm second-guessing myself, like, "oh, did I actually name things that were perhaps toxic?" I don't know. That is what I'm trying to figure out.
I know the fight you had with Jamilla— Jamilla, fucking hell—
i corrected my pronunciation because i pronounced it the way one of my other friends with the same name is pronounced, but not how this Jamilla is pronounced.
—but the thing is, it's not— sure, that's excusable if it were one thing. Like I said, it's not one. It's three. So if it's a trend, it's not a fluke. There's a reason. One can easily be dismissed as a fluke. So far, love, we're— a hundred—
Kyla, I even—
I'm sorry, go ahead?
I even sent you screenshots of what Jamilla said back then. Those messages were just toxic as fuck, the way she actually said, like, "Yeah, no, fuck it, just choose violence," basically. What Dora did was form an opinion of you and you say that I just agree with it. No. Just because I used one way of describing it doesn't mean that I fully agree with her opinion of you.
No, but you agree with that description, is what I'm saying.
At the time, I did agree with that, yeah.
So how can you say "I have no idea where this came from" if you agreed with it?
clearly, that statement still didn't make sense to past kyla's brain. also, here's a weird thing to notice this far in the future, but i'm noticing myself reacting to his change in tone/body language. when he assumes a more aggressive form, i also adjust my own body almost mirroring his to sort of brace myself.
I said I have no idea where her opinion of you came from. That is what I just said. So, please don't change my words around.
okay, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit. here's another new realization rewatching this. once i recognize the raised tempers entering the chat, i immediately turn his volume down further AND switch roles to a more placating position. i realized that it's time to stop standing up for myself and asserting my feelings and that i needed to start appeasing his temper instead. probably another childhood habit of 'reading and managing the room' as part of the eldest daughter + abuse survivor role. it's crazy to observe this and notice it happening now because i definitely was not as aware of it at the time as i am now. immediately, i'm trying to soften myself and soften my words to placate this man to prevent the attacks that were sure to come my way and i was likely doing it more out of an ingrained habit. i'm trying my best to express my feelings in a more palatable manner and i know i likely hated myself for it afterwards because it usually makes me feel like i have to shrink myself to be listened to.
Sven, I am not trying to change your words around. I'm saying, "I have no idea how her her opinion of me," which is toxic, "came from." But you are greed with me being toxic, so that doesn't make sense to me. You see, you're saying "I don't understand how she came up with this," but you agreed with it. Because you described it the same way.
And again, that was just about the toxic part and that was mainly because of the whole trust spiral still going on.
it's crazy to observe past me fiddling with the volume controls according to how safe or unsafe she felt in that moment. it's crazy to observe that from a distance with new perspective because it signals how unsafe i felt and seeing cues like that outside of when you're living through it is...enlightening. that's my survival mode, right there, i guess.
No, you specifically agreed with her. Because you said, "Dora helped me to see..." blah, blah, blah. That's how you phrased it. That's specific. And I know I only saw that message once, but—
Mm-hmm.
—I do have a—
Then I guess you also saw the messages above that.
What messages?
Because the very next day, I sent, "long story short, Kyla didn't care for shit about trust." And later, I said, "had a very long conversation—" that was a minute later, "—had a very long conversation with Dora after her stream on Thursday and she helped me see it to see it a lot clearer." And then, I did s—
Mm-hmm. So you agreed with it.
No. At the at the time, I did agree with it. I'm not even saying I agree with it right now.
Yeah. But you agreed with it, so you would know where it came from if you agreed with it.
At the time, I knew where it came from, yes. And again, at this moment, I do not.
So why are you raising your voice again?
Because I told you this so many times already.
And that's why that "I did at the time and I do not now" doesn't really help me, because—
Kyla, even at the beginning of August, I told you that I do not have the same thoughts anymore as I did at the end of July.
Not anymore. But it still happened, Sven.
It happened, yeah. Past tense.
Yeah, that's my issue. It happened once, it can happen again.
CHAT, I NEED TO GO INTO FORTUNE-TELLING OR SOMETHING. TALK ABOUT A FORECAST. no wonder i felt so unsafe. my instincts were literally screaming at me that this confusing situation was not trustworthy.
And I don't want that to happen again. That is why I'm not sure whether it's now my memory being just very fucking ass, or perhaps it's more time, and I have been struggling with that thought for a longer time, to cut Jamilla and Dora out of my life because they—especially Jamilla, but Dora as well—have their toxic tendencies. Because especially Jamilla, we had a very big fight where she basically started a fight over knowing about 5 to 10% of the whole situation, and she was like, "yeah, just choose violence." Apparently, Dora, I mean, I went through all the the conversation, all the chats. There's literally nothing in there.
You literally just told me that a majority of it was through voice, Sven.
Yeah, and I had hopes that some of it would actually be in Twitch chat. That is why I scrolled up months to see if there was any message. Because I do realize that the videos—they can't be found anymore because they are gone. But I know for damn sure that I did not talk bad about you in public streams.
I'm not worried about you talking bad about me in public streams. I'm worried about you talking bad about me, period. Because it's enough for your friends to pick up. Because friends know you and they're always on your side. They will judge based on how you say things or what you say. That's how Angel would—
And that is exactly why I never talked to to Dora, Niels, or Jamilla again about you—
That was—
—just like you requested me to.
Exactly. That was because I requested it. Obviously, I didn't want to because you thought that—
That was even before—that was even before everything of the end of July happened. And I never told them anything about that request.
So, what I'm hearing is you're basically saying "the only way for my friends to not have a negative opinion of you is for me to just not say shit, because apparently, if I say shit—"
No, that's— now you're just— no. No. That's just jumping to conclusions, Kyla.
That's what I am hearing, Sven. And it's really offensive that you laugh at it.
No, then you're not listening to me. Then you're just not listening to what I'm saying.
You're not listening to what I'm saying either.
Kyla, I am listening to what you're saying.
...i can see the frustration and defeat and hurt so clearly now i still really really really just want to reach through and give past me a hug because obviously she can't fight the hurt anymore and it's literally about to leak out.
Because you are saying that apparently, I can't talk nicely about you. Or I can't speak nicely about you and just hold back the bad things? Because apparently, all I do to, especially now Dora and Jamilla, apparently, is talk bad about you. Because how else are they going to form an opinion? That is what you just said.
That's not what I just said, Sven.
Not what I'm hearing. Then what am I meant to hear?
I don't think you can hear it right now because you're being really mean.
How am I being mean?
I'm trying to talk to you about how I'm feeling and you're laughing at me.
Because you are just jumping to conclusions, Kyla. I'm sorry, but earlier, you were twisting my words and now you're just jumping to conclusions based on things that I didn't even say. So, how am I— I'll try and take a break.
past kyla clearly already feels so defeated because this man is trying to defend rather than understand what she's trying to verbalize, and to his benefit, he recognized it, too, and tried to course-correct with the break.
Because I do realize that I am getting very defensive, and I'm sorry about that. And I know that has been going on for quite some time, and I realized that too late.
*timelapse while Sven takes a break and Kyla attempts to self-regulate the hurt*
oof, i can see myself trying and failing to push the pain away
I shouldn't have laughed at you; I'm sorry. That wasn't fair. Are you willing to tell me what I was meant to hear?
Love, when I said— when you brought it up, and I'm like, "Oh, then what formed that opinion?" And you were like, "I don't know; wish I knew. I didn't even agree with it then. I didn't agree with it. I don't agree with it now." And I'm like, "No, you did agree with it then. You clearly knew enough to agree with it because that's literally how you describe it." And, uhm...if you—
Kyla!
Yeah? Completely?
Yeah!
Oh, that's—! Oh, they're learning! *laughs* Yeah. Yeah.
*timelapse while Kyla attends to socialization duties*
Sorry. Alisa just left, uhm...
I have to leave in 17 minutes.
Okay.
So, what was I meant to hear before you suddenly left?
i can see i tried really hard to explain what i was feeling, but it was good that that socialization also gave me a much-needed reset to gather my thoughts and come back less confused and lost for words. the turning the volume back up is a good sign because it means i feel more capable of handling the conversation now and feel less unsafe.
It was just frustrating that when I kept bringing up like, "okay, uhm, so what led to this?" And you're like, "I have no idea. Didn't agree with it. I don't agree with it. I don't know where this is coming from." And I'm like, "you do, because you literally just described it as a rant that you were there for. And you agreed with it to a certain point that you described it in the same language." So it...it was very evasive and very non-helpful and a lot of 'I don't know's and it was frustrating.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, "Yeah, but this is how it's making me feel and this is how I feel." And you're like, "Now you're just putting words in my mouth, reading into it." I'm like, "No, I'm not reading into it. Like, literally, you did feel that way." Like, what do you mean I'm reading into it? Those are the facts. Like, what exactly am I reading into, or like, what am I putting there that isn't there to begin with? I said that they are clearly picking up on something, and you are clearly capable of feeling similarly. Well, what about that is not true? What about that is me coming up with my own conclusions? I'm describing the event—
The conclusion—
—in chronological order as they happened. Go ahead.
The conclusion you drew was very different, if not even the opposite, of what I had just said.
What conclusion did I draw that was opposite of what you said?
Where apparently I wasn't able to talk about you to friends without them forming a negative opinion of you.
That's not what I said.
Then what is it you said? Because apparently, you first asked me, "what did I say?" And then when I repeated, like, your conclusion the way I heard it, it's not what you said. So, go ahead. What did you say?
I said that apparently, the only way for them not to form that type of opinion is for you not to talk about them. That doesn't mean that you can't talk about it without saying negative things. That doesn't mean a blanket like, "Oh, when you talk about me, you're talking shit all the time." I didn't say that. I said that, uhm, people read into tone of voice and into the way you say things. And I'm not saying you're saying things badly, but I'm saying that...
Yeah, go ahead.
That the implications you're putting down, there have been times where it's negative enough for them to form that opinion.
So what implications did I put down then?
That I'm toxic.
Those are not the implications I put down. I never told that to Jamilla. I never told that to Dora.
They don't talk to each other the way you talk to them, so they can't have gotten that anywhere else.
So how is this you trying to talk about how you felt instead of attacking? Because now you just say like, "yeah, no, everything points to you and you're the one that put those implications in their heads because otherwise, they would never have come to that conclusion."
Because I'm saying—
Even though I said that Jamilla chose violence even though she didn't even know 5% or 10% of the full story. I even sent you screenshots of that. I also just now told you that, for some reason, Dora is very protective when it comes to me, for some reason. I have no clue why.
Dora? They all are, Sven.
So even—
Go ahead.
So even if they don't know— like, Dora doesn't even know the story, all of a sudden, she will get mad for no reason at all. Just because I get hurt by someone and that is all. That was the case with Eefje. That was the case with Tris. And apparently, that is now also the case. But sure, I am the one that puts those implications in their heads. I have no idea how, though, because I just went through Twitch chat for months ago and I didn't find anything negative about you. The only thing that could have been put in negative daylight would have been the fact that I said, "Oh yeah, and she demanded live commentary on the Taylor Swift albums." That is all. I'm sorry, but I don't see how that would form anyone's opinion for you to be toxic.
I also don't— I'm very sure that none of which, none of the things that I said to Jamilla actually led up to her saying like, "Oh, yeah, no, that's— just choose violence. Burn the bridges." Because I believe that is just the way they are. Because even now, at times, during our last conversations, Jamilla tried to pick a fight. Because for the longest time, I've been trying to avoid talking to Jamilla. Because the last time that I actually spoke to Jamilla, yeah, that was when she apologized. The last time I spoke to Niels, however, was a couple of weeks ago. And when I was on break, I remembered that.
That what?
That I actually had talked to Niels more recent than I have been talking to Jamilla. But the second that she got home, I was like, "Yeah, you know what? I don't feel like talking to her because I know. Because even over WhatsApp, she was trying to start a fight again." Because sometimes, that is just how people are. Because Jamilla doesn't agree with my choice to send you a message again. That is also why I didn't tell them about it for the longest time. Because I know this was going to happen. I know that it was going to be a fight again. And that happened.
And I'm also very very hesitant to even start talking to Dora again, or even send her a message, or even reply, because that would take days. Because I know that somehow, she formed this opinion of you that I don't agree with. And yeah, sure, at that period of time, when I was still mid-trust spiral, yeah, there was a thought in my head that the things that were happening were toxic. And that was the case when it came to the location. That was the case when you suddenly accused me of using ChatGPT for the messages that I sent to you.
chat, let me remind you that he did, in fact, use chatgpt for not just the messages he sent to me before he broke up with me in july, but also for the "poems" he handwrote for me months before that when i was in australia, and for the tough discussions we've had prior to the july incident.
but past kyla would not find this out until two weeks after this moment.
the righteous anger she would feel because she confronted him about it once and he vehemently denied it and she accepted his denial.
and then he continued to bring it up in arguments such as this one that i didn't trust him because i accused him of using chatgpt in his responses (as evidenced in the discovery here). this actually turned out to be true. even as recent as one month before we finally broke up in april, i caught him using chatgpt when trying to compose messages to his friends and told him it just makes what he's trying to say all the more confusing and inauthentic because they weren't his words to begin with.
Because for quite some time back then, I thought that everything that I was doing, everything that was happening was being questioned.
because it was true, fam. you were using chatgpt to write your responses for you, tf. past kyla really needed to trust her instincts more.
Even though I wasn't even trusted to know anything about happening in your life. So yeah, the whole trust spiral, that is what made me agree with that part where she said that it was toxic. I'm not saying you are toxic. It, as in our situation back then. And yeah, I may have phrased that differently with Sami and and Gerson. Go ahead.
You basically just said you agree.
oh, my baby girl... the inconsistencies are killing her here. fam, you're literally talking to someone good at taking tests. pattern-recognition is a skill for her. she can sense the pattern and inconsistencies in statements.
Agree with what, exactly? How did you hear me?
"Oh, yeah, I'm not saying you're toxic. I'm saying, like, we were toxic back then."
The situation we were in was toxic.
Mm-hmm. So you agree?
I was still in a— I just said I do agree that, with that part, the situation we were in was toxic, yes.
Which part?
The fact that location was a thing that we fought a couple of times about, not only because of my location when I had to go to the hospital day, but also when you suddenly disappeared for a couple of hours some night without saying a word. It happened multiple times.
Also the fact that you, because I phrase things in a certain way, was wondering if I use ChatGPT. (I'm sorry, but the outright lies here enrage me. Still using this as a weapon despite knowing fully well that he consistently did use ChatGPT to respond to me. Future me sees the ChatGPT threads with her own two eyes.) Also, when we were fighting about things, all of a sudden, it would be— a small thing could just blow up. So yeah, the situation we were in wasn't the best, that's for sure.
You don't have to backtrack. Stand on it. Say what you think.
No, I'm not backtracking.
Because yeah, because when I, uh, when I recognize certain phrases as "that's weird; that's something ChatGPT would say," that's toxic? I'm sorry, what?
KYLA DON'T DOUBT YOUR INSTINCTS. THEY ARE 100% ON THE MARK. STOP ASKING HIM TO EXPLAIN HIMSELF. HE HAS NO EXCUSES FOR TRUTH. ALISKIDHASALKSDJLAS reliving this with the perspective i have now knowing what i know now is absolutely KILLING me.
You asked me about that once, and then I said, "no, I don't use ChatGPT," but I also said that, "yeah, sometimes phrasing— I do borrow that from ChatGPT, because in the end, I copy things that I see and read."
Yeah, because—
I told you about that back then, and then you brought it back again and again.
—the only way that ChatGPT would come up with that phrasing that you could borrow is if you talked about it for it to come to that conclusion, and then you therefore, take that conclusion as your own.
What conclusion? And talking about what with ChatGPT?
What else would ChatGPT say "emotional contradictions and poetic sidesteps" for if it wasn't about our situation? Where else would it get— what other subject would it come up with that phrase?
no, i am so proud of past kyla for trusting her instincts here, because i am directly quoting a line he used in the july incident with that. and i do see with my own two eyes, just a couple of weeks after this, the chatgpt thread he ran all our july incident discussions through and then fed back to me. with future perspective, i can't believe the absolute audacity of his denial here. if i ever doubt my instincts again and skill at recognizing misaligned pieces to a puzzle, i really need to refer back to this interaction.
Do you really want to know where I actually got that line?
Go ahead.
There was where mid-December last year when I was struggling with suddenly being abandoned by Tris after my suicide attempt. Because she, too, had a way with words and somehow, even when I was in the hospital bed, she managed to play my emotional strings. So yeah, that is when I came across that line.
"She, too, had a way with words?"
and it was in that moment, ladies and gentlemen, he realized: he fucked up.
Do I want to use it more often?
I'm not sure if you're picking up on this, or if you're not, like, reading into this whole conversation, but do I give a shit what Jamilla or Niels or Dora thinks or says? No. This whole time, I've been saying, "Yeah, they say this, but clearly you agree with it. You can think this way. You feel this way." And you've just been confirming that the whole time.
my baby. please. i want to hug her. she's such a smart cookie, but my aunt was right. she trusts the wrong people. ajkshdkjdhakjshdkjahkdsa. i hate hearing back my voice cracking because it makes me re-feel the pain that's coursing through me at the exact moments my strength cracks.
I don't give a shit what they think—
And I've also been saying the whole time—
I am not done. I am not done.
yes, sweetheart, stand up for yourself. we don't take that shit laying down.
Go ahead. I still have two minutes so go ahead.
I am not done.
Go ahead.
I have literally been saying, "Yeah, I feel like they have said this, and clearly, you're in a position that you have and can agree with it." I am exploring your thoughts and your feelings, and every single turn in this conversation, you have been confirming every single fear of mine.
past me is so done with repeating the same message for over an hour and it not being delivered. she literally doesn't know how to be more straightforward than this and she is pushing through the cracks to verbalize her feelings. why? why are you begging to be understood? please, my love, this isn't going to be worth as much effort as you're clearly trying to push into it right now. ugh. i hate reliving this with future perspective. it hurts. i feel so much empathy for struggling past me. i want to reach through the screen and rescue her from it.
You're like, "oh, yeah, I am trying to scroll for months if I've said anything that would make her think—" I'm like, "I'm sorry, I don't care what she thinks?"
Then what exactly is that fear?
I'm more worried about what you're thinking, about what you're feeling, about what you're capable of, have been capable of, will be capable of? But sure, focus on the completely different thing.
So what exact— well, you keep going back to what I said. So I tried my hardest to actually find what I said.
Yeah. What you said. Because the way you say things is driven from the way you feel about things, from the way you think about things. I am talking about you, Sven.
Yeah, and I also repeatedly said to you that I don't feel that way anymore anymore.
Anymore.
That's exactly—
But you have.
Yeah, I have—
And you can.
And I never denied that.
And you will again.
No, I don't want to feel like that again.
"You don't want to" doesn't mean it won't happen!
i hate hate hate that past kyla is going to have to learn the hard way that, just because she wants to trust this person, doesn't mean her instincts were wrong.
Kyla, the very first phone call, back in August, when you suddenly called me again that night, we talked about the end of July and the way that I don't feel like that anymore, and I don't want to feel about that anymore. So why is it that you constantly go back to "and you will feel like that again"? No, I don't want to.
because there is such a large gap between "not wanting to" and "not going to," sven, i hate to tell you this. all she ever hears from you are wishes, but never any determination, never any follow-through, never any action. i always felt so unsafe.
And that is exactly why I also am avoiding Jamilla, because that's toxic as fuck, and that's also why I've been trying to avoid Dora, because apparently, she has the power to somehow get me into a spiral and the end of July is a result of that. So do I want to keep in touch with those people? Because so far, they didn't really have a positive impact on my life, especially in the last few months.
And that's why I said that, "how is it that the only way that you're not able to feel that way is if you stop talking to people about it"? What is it— because if you talk to them about it, then you will feel that way? That's my point. It's the 'what you're capable of', Sven. It sounds a lot to me like—
It's— yeah—
—you're saying like, "oh, yeah, I better just not go near it because if I go near it, then I would be tempted to do it again."
No. To me, it's more like, "no, I know what kind of effect these people can have on me." And now I'm very cautious and I'm actually debating like, "okay, is it even worth being friends with these people anymore?" Because so far, the only effect they've had in the past few months, hasn't been positive at all. As a matter of fact, I thought that I just threw everything away. Also something that I repeatedly told you.
You are judging the friends—
So no, it's not about— go ahead.
You are judging the friendships based on the last few months, but you have been friends with them for years. That is not fair. And it is your friends' job to take your side and care about you, yes.
Then how is it fair that when I do everything that I am capable of doing to avoid a situation like the end of July again, that it's now being held against me that I'm evaluating these friendships—these two in particular—based on the past few months? Because to me, that is, for now, at least, the only way to avoid doing that. Because I don't want to end up in a spiral or fighting—
That's the point.
—over you with those people again. And that is not even because I say I talk shit about you or I don't even tell them shit. I don't even tell them shit about you. Because you know why? You requested me not to do so, so I don't.
That's the point. Because the only way that you not talk about me is because I requested it, and the only way that clearly, you can avoid that mental space or situation—
Well, Kyla, apparently—
—is if you don't talk to them about it. Sven, I am— Sven. Sven. Sven. It hurts me that this is something that you have to avoid to not feel that way.
strange as it sounds, i am lowkey proud of both people here right now. sven is recognizing and stating his limits, and kyla is able to clearly verbalize why this situation just puts her in a very unsafe and uncertain position.
Kyla, even only telling positive things about you wouldn't change them.
No, I'm not— like I said, I don't give a shit about them. I give a shit about you. I give a shit that you're telling me that if you talk to them—
It's not—
annnnnd unfortunately, it just all spirals down from here.
—you would feel this way.
You're not listening to me.
oof. this part is overall just difficult to sit through because it's just so human. this part of humanity is almost tragic.
Kyla, I don't hold it against you that I avoid talking to them at all.
I am— Sven, I am not saying that you hold—
Can I— Can I— No, no, no, no.
Go ahead.
Can I please finish?
Go ahead.
I feel completely comfortable not talking to them at all. And I know that started out with not talking about you with them, but for some reason, even only telling positive things doesn't change the fact that they will form a negative opinion of you. And I don't know why. I really don't know why. And neither are you.
You're not hearing what I'm trying—
I know you don't give a— I know you don't give a shit about them. I know that.
I'm trying to tell you that what's hurting me is that you have to specifically avoid a situation to avoid feeling a way about me. Because that basically just tells me that you will feel that way about me if you were in that situation.
No, Kyla, it's— I'm not avoiding them to avoid feeling a certain way about you.
You literally said, "I never want to feel that that way again. That's why I stopped talking to them, because I know that they can make me feel that way."
...okay, now i just want to hug both babies. they are going through it. both are so frustrated and neither is listening or feeling like they're being heard. wow, this situation just overall sucks. 0/10.
Do you even know how many fights I've had with Jamilla over the past, I don't know, six, seven years? The only reason that I actually am still in contact with her is because she's married to Niels and I am very good friends with Niels. So out of respect for him, I still talk to her. But I managed to be friends with Niels in the first place, and then I got to know Jamilla. With Dora, there's been countless— like, I even gave you two examples earlier, how she suddenly got protective for no reason at all.
Sven—
Kyla, it's not— I'm not avoiding talking to them because of the way how they affect my feelings for you. I'm avoiding them because I want to avoid getting into fights over things that are happening right now. And I'm pretty sure that that will eventually circle back to us.
I don't understand that statement.
So, please— I'm not avoiding them on your request, or because I want to, the way you phrased it earlier, because I feel a certain way about you and I felt a certain way about you in the end of July. But I wasn't in the best place. And I spiraled hard. And they, I don't know, for some reason, they saw it fit to actually make use of that. And I don't know why. I don't know how that would even be a thing.
They weren't making use of that, Sven. They were trying to cut down your stress so you wouldn't feel as miserable. That's what— friends are protective. That's friends. That's just friends, period.
No, Kyla.
If they care about you, they'll have strong opinions for their protectiveness, that's—
if i detach myself enough from this situation, i'm actually proud of both of them right now. sven is, in his own way, trying to protect the relationship. kyla is trying to point out that sven needs to have a clear mind, a clear conscience, and a clear direction that he can stand on his own principles without avoiding people who were clearly only trying to care about him. can i just say i am so proud of past kyla for still having that perspective despite her own reservations and discomfort based on everything sven has told her about them before? she never swayed into villainizing them just to make it easier for her. she only humanized them. i'm proud of her for continuously choosing to do that, even if it only turns out to backfire on her.
Yeah, I guess their opinion, for both Dora and Jamilla, would be for me to die single. Because that is the only way, apparently, that they are content. Dora made that very clear two times already. Actually, three times already, because the end of July was one of them. Jamilla is— I don't know, she just wants to pick fights, or have me burn bridges. And I told you countless times since the beginning of August that I don't want to do either of those.
You told me that "I don't want to feel that way again and that's why I haven't been talking to them." And I'm like, "why do you have to stop talking to them to avoid feeling that way?"
Because feeling like that is—
Because it means you're capable of feeling that way, under the right circumstances, you're capable of thinking about me in a way that—
Yeah, I hit an absolute low. I had reached an absolute low. And like I said just now, I feel like they were just making use of that. But you don't even believe it when I say that, because you just say, "no, friends are protective." I'm sorry, but this was not protective at all. Especially because Dora actually had drafted a message for me to end it with you. How is that being protective? That's not being protective. That is just outright using a weakness.
That is her trying to help you based on a limited amount of information.
No.
Like you said, they did not have the other side of the story. They were just trying to be on your side, Sven. I just— I am not saying that you're wrong. I am not defending them. I'm saying that it hurts me that you can think this way about me, that you can believe this way about me, and that that it's not even a guarantee that you won't ever think or believe that way about me again.
okay, ouch. my heart just broke relistening to that with future perspective.
And again, that is what I want to avoid to ever happen again. I don't want to feel that way about you, Kyla. I never do. But in those days at the end of July, the two of them were just talking in on me, and that only led the spiral further further down.
Sven, you can't blame other people for your actions, your feelings, and your thoughts. You are responsible for that. It doesn't matter how many times people will tell me to do something, if I don't want to do that thing, I won't do that thing. It doesn't matter if how many times people will tell me the sky is—
Lower your voice, please.
It doesn't matter how many times people tell me the sky is purple. If I know the sky is blue, I won't believe that the sky is purple. That's where I'm coming.
Yeah, and at that point, I was color-blind, Kyla. I really have to go for dinner now.
Why do you always end the conversations like that? Why?
yeah, this just hurt, reliving how unsafe that relationship felt to past kyla. tl;dr - this was clearly very hard for past kyla and past sven. there's such a large gap there and they're both hurting and frustrated, poor things. don't worry, loves, there's healing for you in the future, promise. it is not something you go through together, but it is something that you will receive and there's some hope in that. it's not as bad as you think it will be.
